The Crawfish Boxes: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: A Look At Strikeout Rates By Pitch Type


The Lineup We're Gonna Use Opening Day -- And Why We Probably Shouldn't

If I had a hundred bucks to bet (and Lord knows I don't, as property taxes are due at the end of the month), I'd bet that on March 31, when the Astros open the season in San Diego, the lineup that Cooper runs out there will be as follows:

Bourn
Matsui
Berkman
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Everett
Towles
Pitcher

Barring injury, of course, and maybe realizing that there might be some grey area between Everett 7 Towles 8 and Towles 7 Everett 8.

But beyond that, you can write it down.

I'm not saying necessarily this would be the best lineup, but it's the one Conventional Baseball Wisdom would put out there, the one that someone who begins his sentences with "in all my years in the game" would hand to the umpire at home plate.

It's kind of sad to realize this, because totally apart from some of the lesser offensive talent that populates the lineup, it's a kind of stupid ordering.

Like, why put Michael Bourn at the top? I mean, I guess he's fast, but don't you want to put the guy with the best chance of getting onbase at the top? Dan Szymborski at Baseball Think Factory, in his ZIPS projections, suggests that Bourn is going to have a .314 OBP in 2008. Yet despite this alarming low rate, dollars to doughnuts, he's gonna be leading off on March 31.

Shouldn't you lead off with the guy who's best at getting on? Shouldn't you lead off with Lance?

Never happen of course, but there's a certain mathematically-based methodology that suggests that's exactly what the Astros should do.

I won't get into the whole background here, because I did back in March of '06, but suffice it to say that Cyril Morong and Ken Arneson were involved in the production of a program that suggests most attempts at lineup optimization fall way short.

I took Szymborski's ZIPS projections for 2008 and ran the program, and listed here are its ten best lineups in terms of run production. The number at the left is runs/162 games.

712.49 Berkman Lee Matsui Pence Wigginton Everett Towles Pitcher Bourn
712.18 Berkman Lee Towles Pence Wigginton Everett Matsui Pitcher Bourn
712.03 Berkman Pence Matsui Lee Wigginton Everett Towles Pitcher Bourn
711.92 Berkman Lee Matsui Pence Wigginton Towles Everett Pitcher Bourn
711.80 Berkman Wigginton Matsui Pence Lee Everett Towles Pitcher Bourn
711.72 Berkman Pence Towles Lee Wigginton Everett Matsui Pitcher Bourn
711.50 Berkman Wigginton Towles Pence Lee Everett Matsui Pitcher Bourn
711.49 Berkman Lee Towles Pence Wigginton Matsui Everett Pitcher Bourn
711.46 Berkman Pence Matsui Lee Wigginton Towles Everett Pitcher Bourn
711.32 Berkman Lee Bourn Pence Wigginton Everett Towles Pitcher Matsui

Morong's math may be right, but that doesn't mean Cooper's gonna bat Oswalt in front of Bourn. So here are the top ten lineups with the pitcher batting ninth

681.52 Berkman Lee Bourn Pence Wigginton Towles Matsui Everett Pitcher
681.40 Berkman Lee Bourn Pence Wigginton Matsui Towles Everett Pitcher
681.06 Berkman Pence Bourn Lee Wigginton Towles Matsui Everett Pitcher
680.93 Berkman Pence Bourn Lee Wigginton Matsui Towles Everett Pitcher
680.91 Berkman Lee Bourn Pence Towles Wigginton Matsui Everett Pitcher
680.88 Berkman Lee Bourn Pence Wigginton Everett Towles Matsui Pitcher
680.84 Berkman Wigginton Bourn Pence Lee Towles Matsui Everett Pitcher
680.71 Berkman Wigginton Bourn Pence Lee Matsui Towles Everett Pitcher
680.44 Berkman Pence Bourn Lee Towles Wigginton Matsui Everett Pitcher
680.42 Berkman Lee Matsui Pence Wigginton Towles Bourn Everett Pitcher
If Morong's to be believed, it's only 31 runs given up to the cause of baseball convention. The program ranks the top pitcher nine lineup at 25,530th overall.

And it ranks the top lineup with the pitcher ninth, Berkman third and Lee fourth at number 56,486.

Says it would score 670 runs, or 42 less than number one. A small price to pay for doing things the way they're supposed to be done, right?

And lastly, it says that the lineup at the top, the one I think is most likely to be used on Opening Day, and I bet you agree with me, it says that lineup would score 659 runs.

That's 53 runs less than first-rated lineup would supposedly score. 53 runs! That's 5 wins!

That could win you a division!

To be honest, I'm not sure whether to believe these results or not. I see some of the logic, but I'm a little rusty on my Markov chains, and I have no way then to check the math.

But in thinking about this, I'm a little saddened to realize that we'll never know, one way or the other, because baseball is not forward thinking enough to try some of the more radical-sounding ideas out to see whether or not they'd work.

Instead, we'll see a fast guy who can't get on bat number one and our best onbase guy stuck four spots lower, the way it's always been done.

0 recs | Comment 13 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

If Anyone's Interested
the Perl program I used with Szymborski's ZIPS numbers can be found under the tab Resources on the front page. To keep the results reasonable, I've limited them to those where you'd score over 700 runs a season, I bet you can see where. Alter that and you can see all results > 660 and < 700 etc. Maybe someobdy who knows perl can tell me how to sort from all the results descending by runs/season, I used to know how but forgot. So I had to cut the results into chunks Excel could process.
Cortisone shots: Not just for overpaid athletes anymore.

by rastronomicals on Dec 5, 2007 8:48 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Somebody, reporting for duty
Remove your filter, of course.  Then instead of printing each line inside the permutation, push it onto an array, viz:

push(@print_array, 1.00*(int($rpg*16200)/100) . " " . $lineup);

Then outside the permutation:

@print_array = reverse sort @print_array;
print join("\n", @print_array);

by Xan on Dec 6, 2007 1:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks, Somebody!
Cortisone shots: Not just for overpaid athletes anymore.

by rastronomicals on Dec 6, 2007 7:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Coop has said time and time
That he wants Pence in the 3 hole.

Also: I have never looked at what you are mentioning and I will have to now.

If Bourn OBPs 314 there will be a problem. I can't possibly see how he gets to that conclusion of 314 OBP. By no means do I think Bourn is a great player. Given his walk rates in the minors and in the pros he would have to hit about .230 to only have an OBP of 314. That seems rather ridiculous to me. I haven't projected players yet but I will say I know for fact that Bourn will be healthily above 314OBP when I do.

Make the world a better place. Punch Tim Purpura in the face.

by Shamus on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cooper said he called...
Pence, Berkman, and Lee to let them know that Pence will bat 3d, Berkman, 4th, and Lee 5th.  That's not my preference, but it seems to be Coop's very strong preference.

If you want the pitcher batting 8th, you'll have to hire LaRussa, I suppose.

I agree with Shamus that the Astros will have a BIG problem if Bourn puts up a .314 OBP (if I recall that is also based on a .245 BA or something like that).  I don't know that ZIPS is wrong, though.  ZIPS was tied with PECOTA for accuracy on hitters last year.  However, I believe that all the projection systems tend to have high margins of error for players who don't have much of a ML track record yet.  If you want a more optimistic projection for Bourn, try Bill James' 08 projection: .276 BA, .350 OBP, .358 SLG, .708 OPS.

by clack on Dec 5, 2007 10:58 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've always thought it
would be at least worth looking at in having your lineup basically in the order of your OBP(Highest to lowest of course). Getting people on base is the key to scoring runs, so getting your people who get on base the most, more at bats only makes sense. Slugging % and Avg and all that are good and all, but OBP is more important in my opinion. I think a lineup of Berkman Pence Lee Matsui Bourn Wigginton Towles Everett Pitcher might be suitable
Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 5, 2007 11:21 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And what happens...
when you replace Bourn with Luke Scott? Hmmmmm?
Lee, Pence, Scott in '08

by entropic soul on Dec 5, 2007 11:41 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all I was hoping for
was to break up the DP combo of Berkman and Lee...
Look on the bright side, Ausmus got us Loretta.

by megaera on Dec 6, 2007 3:10 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last season, I dismissed LaRussa's...
No. 8 lineup spot for the pitcher as "gimmicky."  I felt the impact would be inconsequential.  However, if it provides 31 extra runs as you suggest, that isn't trivial.  However, surely the right spot for the pitcher in the lineup might depend on the pitcher's batting average.  Does it make any difference if the pitcher is a very bad hitter (e.g., >.100 BA) or a very good hitter (.230 BA)?  My recollection is that the Cardinals had an above average hitting group of pitchers.  (I think I read an article in Hardball Times which suggested that a particularly good hitting pitcher would move up to the 7 spot with lineup optimization.)  I also wonder if changing the pitcher lineup spot affects how long the starting pitcher will stay in a game?  

by clack on Dec 6, 2007 8:14 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When I Say "Pitcher"
I used the average OBP and average SLG for all Houston pitchers in 2007
Cortisone shots: Not just for overpaid athletes anymore.

by rastronomicals on Dec 6, 2007 7:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how many runs?!
You know the Nationals who scored the least amount of runs scored 673 runs.

Those predictions are syaing the Astros will be worse than that?!?!

I think they are an improved team and will top '07 723 runs.

Something is wrong with ZIPS or I'm missing something.

by Joel on Dec 6, 2007 1:20 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ZIPS projects....
below-.700 OPS for Matsui, Bourn, and Towles. The rest of the lineup is projected probably roughly what you would expect. If that happened--and I'm not saying it will--then the run production will decline.  Bourn and Matsui have to be very proficient at getting on base in order for next year's lineup to work the way you and I hope...but ZIPS doesn't think they will have a good on base percentage.  I think those three guys are hard to project reliably at this point.

by clack on Dec 6, 2007 4:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lineup generator
While this tool is fun to use, and can probably give some good insight into lineup construction, I think there is a better method.  That method is to use a simulator and input the ZIPS projections into that simulator and have the sim play thousands of games with all or a subset of all possible lineups to determine which is best.  A simulator can take into account some of the important aspects of lineup construction that this tool cannot.  It can take into account whether or not a team is facing a left handed or right handed pitcher for example.  It can take into account players who are more likely to hit into double plays, steal bases, field their position, or at what rate the opposing pitcher gives up groundballs vs flyballs, to only name a few.

This is exactly the thing that this blog is doing and has done.

vr, Xei

Go Dodgers!

by Xeifrank on Dec 12, 2007 1:10 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Crawfishboxes, the SBNation blog for the Houston Astros.
Start posting about the Astros »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Nsapcs13_large_small
Mets trade Church for Francouer....
Small
Reggie Abercrombie, Really??!???
Small
A Tale of Two Young Pitchers
Small
"Toxic" Environment?
Small
BA posts mid-season top 50 Prospect Rankings & 'Stros have 2.
Small
Jose Altuve
Astros_small
time for a change
Oingo_boingo-only_a_lad_small
Hunter Pence, All-Star (For Reals!)
Small
Jay Austin
Baseball_-_roy_oswalt_small
Astros Play Day Game Against Padres

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

THE CRAWFISH BOXES GETS SOCIAL

Picture_88_medium The Crawfish Boxes on Facebook

Picture_89_medium The Crawfish Boxes on Twitter

Current Series

Astros lead the series 1-0

Thu 07/09 9 - 4 win
Sat 07/11 6:05 PM CDT
Sun 07/12 1:05 PM CDT

NL Central Standings

W L PCT GB STRK
St. Louis 47 40 .540 0 Won 1
Milwaukee 44 41 .517 2 Lost 1
Chicago 41 41 .500 3.5 Lost 2
Houston 42 43 .494 4 Won 2
Cincinnati 41 43 .488 4.5 Lost 2
Pittsburgh 38 47 .447 8 Lost 1

(updated 7.10.2009 at 4:23 PM CDT)


Humble Blog Managers

Urbanshocker_small HighLeveragePerformer

Lovelance_small DyingQuail

Editors

Nsapcs13_large_small clack

Fbod6_small farm_stros