We Got Fleeced

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 5:21 PM CST in News Comment 52 comments

I've really yet to collect my thoughts, but wanted to get this up, so further comments on the trade would be appended here rather than to Stros Bro's (excellent) piece on Jennings vs. Garland.

I CAN say that they're ecstatic over at Purple Row.

More thoughts to follow, as I think them.

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Buchholz Has Gotta Be Freaking

He has got to know that he has no chance of pitching well at Colorado. Darry Kile had the best curveball of his generation, and it flattened out like all the others in Denver.

Seems to me, Buchholz was basically the Rockies just laughing malevolently at the Astros, taking him from us just 'cause they could, not because they expected him to actually produce in the thin air.

'Course, they could flip him for someone else. . . .

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 5:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts

Link

The Rockies and Astros completed a five-player trade on Tuesday, with the Astros receiving right-handed pitchers Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio and the Rockies getting center fielder Willy Taveras and right-handed pitchers Jason Hirsh and Taylor Buchholz.

I might be going against a lot of the Astros fans, but I'm not as against this trade as a lot of you(including my brother). I feel bad for Luke Scott(a little) since he's losing his best friend on the Astros to the Rockies in Willy Taveras, but honestly, as a player, Willy isn't a huge loss in my opinion. Hirsh and Buchholz are both decent prospects, but neither is anything to write home about. They both had flashes of being productive pitchers last year, but they also both had flashes of being Wandy Rodriguez. You can make a case that the Astros just traded 3 potentially good Major League players for a career 4.72 ERA pitcher, but you have to take into account that Jennings did pitch in Colorado for his entire career and before last year, there was no humidor. It's not a strange coincidence that his ERA went from a 5.02 in 2005 to a 3.72 in 2006.

I don't know exactly how much pitching in Coors Field elevated Jennings' ERA, but just as an example, the Rockies last season scored 456 runs at Coors field and only 357 away from Coors field.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 5:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This Really Has Little To Do With Jennings

You did a great job opening my eyes in the piece below about how surprisingly good Jennings was in some areas when compared to Garland. I looked a little further, for example, and saw that Garland had a .460 OPS against in '06, while Jennings was like .396 or something.

So, way too many walks aside, I could very well end up liking Jennings.

But we gave up too much, too much. Maybe we got a number two starter, but we gave up our four and five starters to do it. And now I'm praying Shamus is prescient and Baldelli is on the way, 'cuase we have no-one to play center field. I'm practically hysterical!

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hirsh Was Not Only

Our Top Prospect Per Baseball America

he was also a number one draft pick just three years ago. Yet he nets us 1/3 of a below-league average starter There's so much yet to be seen, but right now, this deal feels like Lofton for Taubensee.

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 5:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I Say "Below-League Average"

After his 3.78 ERA in '06, Jennings has a 1.03 lifetime ERA+, which is of course park-adjusted.

So slightly above average.

On the other hand, he had a 1.50 WHIP in 2006, and the National League average was 1.40.

Walks are the problem for him, and walks + The Crawfish Boxes could equal trouble.

Still, Stros Bro made a great case that Jennings was in some ways better than Garland, and I was all over Garland, having made the case that Garland would have been better than Pettitte would, so maybe it all works out. . . .

Except we still need a centerfielder :-(

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Contract issues

We had all three players we just gave away locked up for a few years (Hirsh at least under a million bucks) to get a guy signed only through 2007???

This is terrible

I'm stuck between rooting for Jennings (and the Astros, obviously) and hoping he doesn't do too well so that we have a chance of resigning him! Who cares if he went to Baylor...

by Kian on Dec 12, 2006 5:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

it really depends

on how desperate you think we were to get that "established major league pitcher" to slot in behind Roy, and how much you think Jennings fits that role. Jennings certainly had a great year last year (home ERA btw was lower than his road ERA) and has five seasons under his belt at age 27 (Hirsh has less than one at 25), and has been fairly consistent going deep into games. when i first heard this slate for Garland, i thought it was too steep. i still think it's awefully steep, but after losing Pettitte, i think it's probably what we needed to give up and it's probably good we didn't wait much longer. Jennings was obviously high on the list of targets for Purp for a while now, so it seems they really like him. now hopefully we can sign him to an extension and keep him more than just one year. those three for a one-year rental would be pretty friggin weak.

by littlevisigoth on Dec 12, 2006 5:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

unless...

he wins 18 games and we go to another world series :)

by TimStros on Dec 12, 2006 5:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

For what it's worth...

Baseball Prospectus' VORP rankings for 2006 put Jennings (50.8) at #11 in all of MLB. That puts him ahead of (soon to be expensively signed) Zito (49.9), (relatively reasonably signed, all things considered) Schmidt (49.4), (AL ROY) Verlander (47.5), and a whole host of other big names (cough Rocket cough Pettitte).

I mean, I'm sad to see Willy T go and all, but the sky is not falling. I don't honestly believe that Hirsch or Buchholz were ever going to wind up as a reliable #2 starter for Houston in the end. Do y'all?

My only complaint is that we payed a lot to get another guy who'll potentially only be around for one year before he goes free agent. I hate when we do that.

"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen, Zelig (1983)

by jetking on Dec 12, 2006 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

for pitchers, obviously

That's #11 among MLB pitchers, just to be clear.

"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen, Zelig (1983)

by jetking on Dec 12, 2006 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That Makes No Sense

How can a guy have a 1.50 WHIP and finish so high in VORP? Home run avoidance should count for something, but . . . And anyway, he was 258th in VORP the year before. I will cheerfully admit that the truth lies somewhere in between. And since we're flashing Prospectus stats, did you see his 'pen support of -1.7? One of the reasons his ERA looked as good as it did was definitely coz of his bullpen.

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's True

It's true, a good bullpen helped him. And in theory, at times, when the moon is full, the stars are right and Lidge isn't having an NLCS flashback, we've got a good 'pen to back him up. I hope :)

In any case, I say it's not the worst deal we could've done. Let's save the freakout when TPurp does something with Pence+Everett that doesn't involve a center fielder from Toronto...

"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen, Zelig (1983)

by jetking on Dec 12, 2006 6:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would be more freaked out by

Pence+Everett that doesn't bring a short stop in return =)

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True Dat

Nothing like snagging Royce Clayton as part of the VW deal :)

"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen, Zelig (1983)

by jetking on Dec 12, 2006 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cool

Thanks for the stats, you've assuaged my anger slightly.

Can we talk about CF? Lane? Burke? PENCE??? What do we think we're doing here? Please tell me Purpura has a master plan.

by Kian on Dec 12, 2006 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Purp mentioned Pence

in the press conference, and also talked about Burke in center as an offensive upgrade to Willy in center. i'm guessing his plan right now includes some combination of Lane/Burke/Pence, which along with Lee and Scott, doesn't sound like a defensive dynamo outfield.

by littlevisigoth on Dec 12, 2006 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

CF

Burke is serviceable, and Lane needs to prove himself again both offensively and defensively. Any chance we'll bring Josh Anderson up or is Pence the better option?

by Kian on Dec 12, 2006 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My guesses

is that it will be a platoon situation between Lane and Burke. I think Lane can play a decent centerfield. Not a gold glove centerfield, but decent enough. Lane has made some pretty damn nice plays in right field the last few seasons and his arm is better than Burke's(but not close to Willy-T's).

Another note about my response earlier when I stated that the Rockies scored 100 runs more at home than away. The Astros also hit in a hitter friendly park, and they only scored 9 runs more at home than away.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I came over to say I feel you guys..

I'm from Bleed Cubbie Blue, we got a couple of shitty deals this offseason but thank god our dumbwit GM didn't give up any of our prospects. Hirsh is a pretty darn good prospect, they actually wanted us to give them Hill for Jennings.

Look at it this way, at least you won't have Marquis pitching every 5 days.

My condolences...

by Mucho Pitcheo on Dec 12, 2006 6:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

You never know

If Soriano doesn't pan out, you could have Marquis hitting every day :)

by Kian on Dec 12, 2006 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't worry about that...

We got Richard Hidalgo just in case (sigh)...

by Mucho Pitcheo on Dec 12, 2006 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Brandi Griffin From Purple Row on Jennings

. . .we did fleece your team. My opinion was that it was bound to happen with some team for Jennings this offseason, and the Astros were the ones to bite: hook, line and sinker (JJ's best pitch!). However, even though we got the better of this, Jennings will serve you well.
He's a bulldog, much more so than Mike Hampton (well, more so than Hampton was for us at any rate) and he won't get rattled out there. His pitches have bite and this past season he really seemed to take a step forward with consistency and having a good idea of what he wanted to do with each batter.
His ERA in 2006 was definitely kind of a fluke for being so low, however, as I'm sure you're aware. That said, he's not the bottom of the rotation pitcher his stats made him out to be in 2004 and 2005 when he had less command and got flustered more when people got on base.
He walks quite a few batters, but remember Coors inflates that number as well as deflating K's for most pitchers.
Somewhere in the upper middle of a rotation is where his ability lies, he's probably a borderline #2-#3 and he's very durable. Hopefully your team can sign him to an extension.

Thanks very much to Brandi for that and also for. . . .

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 6:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree

I don't think the Astros got screwed by any means... You won't be able to tell if this was a good deal until a few years down the line. Willy-T hasn't progressed at all from his rookie year and there's really no signs that say he's going to turn into a good offensive player. Hirsh and Buchholz have neither pitched a full season in a rotation. Yes they are both pretty decent prospects, but neither have proven they can be a good pitcher at the major league level. Jennings has.

I like Willy T a lot. But he doesn't have the OBP to be a lead off hitter and he doesn't have the power to be a middle of the order hitter and he strikes out too much and doesn't drive the ball (at all) enough to be anything but a leadoff hitter(and yes that was a run-on).

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 6:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Brandi Griffin From Purple Row on Asencio

Ascencio isn't a bad pick up, either.
The Rockies really have underutilized him the last two seasons as an emergency rotation fill waiting in AAA rather than an MLB long reliever. Like most pitchers the Rockies target, he's got good sinking action to his pitches, particularly his low 90's fastball, but he leaves a few too many curve balls up and could get dinged around if he doesn't pitch low in the strike zone.
Again, the walks might be a concern, but I think it goes part and parcel with the type of pitcher the Rockies are trying to stockpile, hard throwers with pitches that drop out of the zone. I'm sure he'll be effective out of the pen for you.

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 6:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Another Thing I Just Thought Of

One of the reasons we weren't so worried about Carlos Lee's defense in left was because of how we knew we'd have Willy to shade him. Yikes.

by rastronomicals on Dec 12, 2006 6:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Garland

If we can sign Jennings to an extension, I think this deal works out better than a trade for Garland might've.

I mean if there's a silver lining in all of this, at least we're paying this guy $5.5 million next year and not $12 million. I can't say Garland's marginal value is twice as much as Jennings.

by Kian on Dec 12, 2006 6:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Good hit, poor pitch?

Rastro, please explain to my thick head why you think we may be turning into a good hit, poor pitch team. It's the "good hit" part I don't get. Seems to me as long as we are stuck (mired?) with Everett, Ausmus, and a pitcher at the bottom of our lineup we are still giving up 1/3 of our at bats, no matter who the other 6 batters are - and only a couple of the other 6 are consistently going to be threats.

Actually, I think our pitching can be a bit better than average, and it feels like another .500 (or a bit better) season is in the works. It's not a warm and fuzzy feeling, at least not for me.

by bwhite2323 on Dec 12, 2006 7:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Berkman+Lee is one of the best 3-4 spots in the National League. If Ensberg can return to anything of his 2005 form(where he was an MVP candidate) and if Luke Scott continues how he was last season, then our 2-5 spots are all very good offensively. Humberto Quintero has been tearing it up in the Venezuelan leagues, if he continues like that in the bigs, then he'll take at least 2-3 starts a week away from Ausmus. Burke/Lane are both better offensively in playing center than Taveras and Biggio is Biggio at 2nd. The Astros have a chance to be a very good team offensively next year. There's a chance they will be a very good pitching team as well. Who knows. Only time will tell.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That is

way too many ifs. If this person does that, if that person does that. Not sure a team can rely on something like that.

by ReLaunch on Dec 13, 2006 6:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea

But it's a lot of ifs that could realistically happen.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 13, 2006 6:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you are right,but

neither you nor anyone else anywhere (that I've seen) has addressed the issue of no production in the 7-8-9 holes. We are still going to to give up 1/3 of our at-bats unless a miracle happens, and thus it won't matter much what the first 6 batters do. And by the way, don't forget that one of those first 6 is gonna' be Biggio. He may be a living legend, but he is not going to be much more than an average batter, at best.

by bwhite2323 on Dec 13, 2006 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've addressed

the need to find a slugging catcher... just unfortunately it doesn't seem the Astros cared enough to try and sign a Molina through free agency or any other catcher that knows what a bat is through trade. It's really too late now... we can try to pick up Toby Hall, but he's not much of an improvement over Ausmus. Quintero has been good down south this off season... hopefully he'll keep it up. Who knows what Biggio will do... hopefully 2nd will be a platoon between him and Burke.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 13, 2006 9:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

do you think

if Burke is the OD center fielder, that he'll still rotate in at 2b? do you think CF will be a bit of a rotating position? guys on the 610 morning show (not that they are baseball authorities, but they raised a good point) were talking about the more likely scenario that Bruntlett would spot start at 2b to allow Burke to be an everyday CF, kinda like when Biggio was moved to CF and wasn't asked to go back to 2b to spell Kent. i'm not sure. i'm assuming they still want Burke as their future everyday 2b, not their future everyday CF, so they'd put Lane or Bruntlett in CF (or somebody else that makes the roster).

i had heard about Quintero doing well down south, so hopefully he can bring a decent bat to ST, and if that's the case, hopefully Ausmus doesn't lead the NL in starts again. let's hope that first half Bidge is what we get more often than not next year, and he sits enough that he never turns into second half Bidge.

not saying that we'll be just as good, but in 2004, i don't remember anybody complaining about Everett and Ausmus's offense when our 1-6 were lighting up the scoreboard. if we get something akin to the 2005 Ensberg and the 2006 Luke, our 2-5 should be pretty nasty (or 3-6, depending on where Mo is batting... i say in the 2-spot, but that's just me)

by littlevisigoth on Dec 14, 2006 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One of the reasons that I didn't complain...

about Ausmus & Everett in 2004 is that their OBPs were about 40 and 70 points higher, respectively. I'd be very happy with that this year, even happier if Everett could somehow rediscover the batting prowess he displayed before the wrist injury.

I also believe that if the Astros will play Burke regularly, he can develop into a .300 hitter and hopefully his fielding as an outfielder would improve enough to make him a more than solid major leaguer - good enough, even, that the Astros could trade him away also!

by bwhite2323 on Dec 14, 2006 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OOPS!

Meant OPS, not OBP in the above comment.

by bwhite2323 on Dec 14, 2006 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Lane will get starts in center and Burke will still rotate in at 2nd when Bidge sits. Remember, unless things have changed very recently, Burke is the 2nd basemen of the future.. He's just been playing outfield because of Biggio.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 14, 2006 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

as a fan of the team who has wayne krivsky

i have to say you guys got screwed. as a reds fan, i revel in it. as a baseball fan, i feel sorry for y'all.

it might not be as bad as an austin kearns/felipe lopez/ryan wagner for gary majewski/bill bray/brendan harris deal, but it's pretty close.

Come worship at the Church of Baseball with Sister Daedalus.

by Daedalus on Dec 12, 2006 9:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

bah...

I'm starting to feel ok with this. It kind of makes me happy to see Burke have a great shot at a consistent starting role, and we really needed a #2 starter so.... I'm not totally happy but there is still alot of time till spring training so no reason to get all pissy just yet :)

by TimStros on Dec 12, 2006 10:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to sound like a

pompous ass... But, come back at the end of next season and see if you still feel the same way. =)

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 10:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this is forcing me to drink(more)

I could care less about Willy(Burke will be much better) and Buccy doesn't hurt that bad. I am sick over Hirsh. I may very well go on a bender or something.

The others in the trade are below replacement value but hirsh is going to be really solid his whole career. I am angry with Purp

Burke will be an All-Star, eventually!

by Shamus on Dec 12, 2006 10:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Don't jump off the bridge yet

Wait to see how things turn out. Come All-Star break next season I might join you on the ledge, but right now, there's no reason to worry about it. Take some Pepto and go to sleep. Jennings is going to be better than you expect...

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 12, 2006 10:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Late to the party it seems

and I'm adding nothing worthwhile, but this picture seems fitting for the title. heh

Look what finals (and other sports) have done to my humor. =/

by matt s on Dec 12, 2006 11:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Weird and Wonderful

:-)

by rastronomicals on Dec 13, 2006 7:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OMG WTF????

Late to the party too (damn 10-hour shifts!), but omg, this is horrible.

I don't care for Buchholz, never have, really, so I don't mind losing him. Hirsh will come into things and we'll regret losing him three or four years down the line, but if things go our way, we'll have our WS rings.

But Willy? Come on, why Willy? I don't trust Burke in the outfield; if his shoulder bothers him at all, we're fucked, plain and simple. Then we have what? Lane. HA. HAHAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. I never wanted to see him in an Astros uniform last year. Plus, Burke is going to see significant time at second (especially after Biggio breaks 3,000. If he's doing poorly, I don't expect him to go much further). I would have liked this deal better if it was Lane instead of Willy. Maybe even a more marginal upside when you think about it.

I'm reserving judgment on Jason Jennings until he pitches a game. Stats are cool and all, but until he throws his first pitch at MMP, he won't get a word out of me, good or bad.

by saylinara on Dec 13, 2006 3:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm warming to it

maybe just cause there's a bit of mindless optimist in me, particularly when it comes to being a fan. the fact is, we needed a pitcher we can trust, at least a little. i only really came to know Jennings last year, when he pitced well against us (a May 6th CG SHO comes to mind). after that i came to realize that he was having a pretty good season beyond just being one of the many pitchers to make the Astros lineup look like a bunch of ameteurs. looking at his career stats and hearing more about him, he seems like a solid guy to slot in behind Roy Oswalt. we might not be looking at Andy or Roger at their best in an Astros uni, but i think we have to realize that we were pretty spoiled these last three years. without picking up a Jason Jennings, our rotation could have been anywhere from pretty decent to a laughing stock if Roy is the only beacon of consistency.

All that said, nothing comes for free, particularly in today's lucrative market. Losing Willy really is a trade of defense and speed for more productive offense that you can argue yourself into. Losing Hirsh is what's tough, but it's really sacrificing the bottom of your rotation for the top and that's hard to knock against. We'll just have to pull for Sampson, Albers, and whomever else has to fill that void to numb the pain.

I'm okay with it. I'm looking at it as something that had to be done, and rationalizing away all my angst with what we lost. So far it's working.

by littlevisigoth on Dec 13, 2006 9:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully others will to...

Any doubters, go check the career stats of Darryl Kile and Mike Hampton. Both ex-Astros who had good careers, left for the Rockies and got shelled and then left Colorado and resumed their good careers.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 13, 2006 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who to blame?

This is certainly not my fault and that is the only thing I am sure about.

Let's look into a little scenario here.
If the Astros pay Pettitte 28M over 2 years: Roger pitches 3+ months for 15M, we keep Hirsh, the payroll is 125M, and the Astros are the #1 or 2 contender in the NL.

What we did: They lose their National appeale, lose a pitcher with the best MiL track record I can remember them ever having that will make ~17M over the next 6yr for a guy they will be lucky to pay 65M over that time, and still they leave ???s all over the field and rotation.

What did they accomplish: The payroll will be around 100M and they might have to count on 6 or 7 rookies or 2nd year players again.

I will have more later

Burke will be an All-Star, eventually!

by Shamus on Dec 13, 2006 9:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Fuck Pettitte

You need to look at the two things separately.

I don't like the Jennings deal, but that's separate and apart from letting Andy go--which I thought was the right thing to do.

And to be honest, if I'm Roger Clemens, when I'm deciding if I want to pitch/who I want to pitch for in 2007, not having Willy T behind me is a bigger dissuasion to pitching in Houston again than simply coz my workout buddy went back to the Bronx.

by rastronomicals on Dec 13, 2006 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not having Willy T

SHOULD be a bigger dissuasion to pitching in Houston again, not "is" I don't think. There is way too much going on in the background that we don't really know about to make any assumptions on how Roger feels, but I'm gonna do it anyways. I think Roger coming home to pitch in Houston was in part connected to Pettitte also pitching in Houston. I think whats really going to happen this year is because Pettitte is going back to NY and doing his own thing then Clemens is also going to do his own thing. Unfortunately for us Roger's own thing is cooking barbecue in his back yard, not throwing fastballs at MMP. But to support rastro's claim about wanting great defense behind you: Brad Ausmus. Do you think Roger would have pushed so much to have Ausmus behind the plate if he wasn't worried about the defensive aspect of baseball? Willy T being gone is going to hurt us on the defensive end of the spectrum, but if it also helps us on the offensive side I think it's somewhat of a wash. If Willy's defense helps take away 50 runs a year more than Burke/Lane/whoever else plays there, but the offense that we produce adds 51 more runs a year then I think we should be happy w/ our output there.

by TimStros on Dec 13, 2006 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Emphasis

I don't think there is enough emphasis here on the fact that Willy T is just not that good. He is lovable, yes, and I will miss his presence. But when it comes to his actual play, I've always felt that he's consistently overmatched at the the plate (19 doubles in 529 at bats?), that he doesn't steal as many bases as he could (if 39-year-old Omar Vizquel can steal 24, Willy should have stolen 126), and that his numbers aren't really there. Honestly, if you saw his line and he was a Cub or a Red, would you think twice about it?

Granted, we have no center fielder. But I am more worried, in the end, about Hirsh. But he's unproven, and Buckholz is, to coin an adjective, wandy.

I was unnerved, like most, when I saw the headline this morning. But I've taken pause, thought on it, and it's gonna be okay. (I think)

by alamosweet on Dec 13, 2006 12:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I completely agree

Willy's defense is his strong point. We already have two defensive minded starters in Everett and Ausmus. We need offense more than we need defense and Chris Burke and Jason Lane are both offensive upgrades over Willy Taveras. Losing Willy and Taylor are not big losses... I wouldn't call them throw ins(like ascenciwhoever), but they aren't big losses. Hirsh is the only real loss in my opinion.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Dec 13, 2006 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

not to say that I don't like the trade, cause I've already gone through the process of convincing myself that I'm okay with it, but the Willy proponents aren't really looking at the Willy that we saw last year or the year before, but what Willy potentially could become. not that he will, but if he manages to keep his BA closer to .300, continue to work on his plate discipline, and learn to drive the ball just a LITTLE bit more (which in flashes we've seen him do), he could be a solid starting CF in this league for some time. his defense will only improve and barring injuries, his rocket arm and undeniable speed won't go away. if you're convinced that he's never going to get any better than he is, than fine, he's no real loss. but if you're like i was, hoping that he'd ratchet up his offensive production in the next year or so to being considered a good contact hitter with some gap power, then he could turn out to be tough loss.

there's a lot to be said on both sides. i'm still leaning on the blind optimist side, saying that i think it's the deal we had to make to be where we want to be in the short term and the long-term losses aren't enough to make it a bad deal. we'll just have to wait and see, and hope that we can re-sign this guy at something less than the current FA market rate (c'mon Baylor alumni discount!... and no, i don't honestly believe that will mean anything at all as far as dollars and cents are concerned)

by littlevisigoth on Dec 13, 2006 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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	W	L	PCT	GB	STRK
St. Louis Viva El Birdos	45	39	.535	0	Won 1
Milwaukee Brew Crew Ball	43	39	.524	1	Won 1
Chicago Bleed Cubbie Blue	40	39	.506	2.5	Lost 1
Cincinnati Red Reporter	40	40	.500	3	Lost 1
Houston The Crawfish Boxes	39	41	.487	4	Won 1
Pittsburgh Bucs Dugout	37	45	.451	7	Lost 2