Jim Thome, Jeff Bagwell and the Hall of Fame
As I was watching my lowly Astros take on the Cubs in another losing effort, my twitter feed had a momentary hiccup.
Jim Thome hit his 600th home run. Absolutely fantastic.
I don't have any grudges against Jim Thome. If anything, I like the guy. He seems well liked, he's on my second-favorite team (the Twins) and he just achieved a pretty special milestone. He's only the eighth player to enter the 600 club, following in the footsteps of Ken Griffey Jr. and the controversial Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds. Reading a couple tweets and a couple articles, the name "Jim Thome" was typically followed by the words "Hall of Famer." Even though none specified what type of Hall of Famer (first ballot or not), a thought quickly jumped in my head.
If Jeff Bagwell had to wait a year, so should Jim Thome.
The two slugger share more than just home runs. Both are well liked in baseball. Both came up through the Minor Leagues as third basemen, eventually switching to first base at the Major League level. They both made their debuts in 1991, Bagwell at 23 and Thome at 20. Thome was a September call-up while Bagwell played essentially from day one of that season. Thome wouldn't see regular playing time until 1994 in his age 23 season. Both collected almost identical All-Star selections and MVP votes; Thome collected 5 All-Star appearances and 9 years of MVP consideration, Bagwell had 4 All-Star appearances and 10 years of MVP consideration. Yes, All-Star appearances and MVP consideration aren't the best way to measure a players worth but it is something the voters of the Hall of Fame take into consideration.
Statistically, they're not all that different. Thome has managed to play longer but he carries a 147 OPS+ which is almost identical to Bagwell's 149 OPS+. If WAR is your statistic, Bagwell actually leads Thome 83.9 to 70.7, which can be explained by Bagwell's superior defense and base running ability. Thome actually hasn't played first base since 2007 when he played all of one game at the position. In fact, between 2006 and 2007, he played a total of four games at first base. In 2005, he played 52 games at first base with the Phillies which coincidentally coincides with Bagwell's last year playing.
Had Bagwell decided to switch to the AL like Thome did, he would have certainly reached the 500 home run mark, since fielding was the problem for Bagwell because of his bum shoulder, not hitting. Getting to 600 home runs would have certainly been out of reach but 500 is still a pretty exclusive club even if it has been tarnished by the steroid era.
Both played in the steroid era and both profile as the muscle bound sluggers typical of that time. While the cynical side of me wants Thome to wait a year like Bagwell did, I'd rather see Thome go in on the first ballot as Bagwell should have. My hope is that through Thome, voters will re-think their stance on Bagwell, but if nothing else that the voters learn through Bagwell not to deny another great baseball player his time.
I honestly believe that if Bagwell is not voted in on this next round of voting he'll be voted in with Biggio and while that's a nice thought Jeff Bagwell really deserves his own day.
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Hmm....the problem with Bagwell
and its not a case I agree with, but he had 5 seasons 1994,1996,1997, 1999 and 2000 that really stick out compared with other years.
Thome’s peak 1995-2007 is mighty, and in purely slugging terms, outweighs Bagwell’s career peak. Different type of player, not a pure hitter like bagwell, and you have Baggy’s 202 SB and excellent defense.
Still, a good comparison though, and not one I would have considered.
what are you using for your criteria as “sticks out”?
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by Timothy De Block on Aug 16, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
with WAR, ’95 would have been a 6 WAR season if he would have played a full season. He had a really slow start that year, but really heated up and was posting normal Bagwellian numbers in June and July before missing the entire month of August with an injury. If he would have played in August of that year, 1995 would fit in with the string of seasons that you mention. In ’98 he posted a WAR of 6.7 which was more than the 5.4 he posted in 2000. His 2001 was only slightly behind that 2000 season with 5.2 WAR.
Really, the only season that sticks out is ’94. 1994 was truly awesome. He posted 8.9 WAR, an OPS of 1.201, and an OPS+ of 213 in 110 games during that strike shortened season.
I'm playing devils advocate here
it was something that cropped up in some of the debates on baseball think factory before last year’s HOF vote.
Oh, I know..you even said up front that you really didn’t agree with it. I thought it was interesting. I had honestly never heard that argument before.
by Brad E on Aug 16, 2011 4:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He had a pretty nice rookie season in ‘92 and sophmore season in ’93, followed by 10 years of dominance, followed by 2 years in which he still posted respectable OPS+ of 128 and 115. Even though they were his best years, I don’t think 1994, 96, 97, 99, and 00 really stick out.
Both guys have been awesome. I hope both of them get rewarded.
Without the DH...
Thome never would have hit 600. Not fair for him to be compared to greats, when he had a leg up post-Philadelphia. The DH is the biggest joke in baseball.
by firemills on Aug 16, 2011 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Father: "Here's a bat, son."
Son: “Thanks, Dad! But what about a glove?”
Father: “Oh, don’t worry about that… you can just be a DH.”
Baggs and BGO should both be in the Hall, but i agree with you that Bags needs his day.
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
by MexicanTitanFreak on Aug 16, 2011 3:34 PM CDT reply actions
Thome is a great player
But Baggy reminds me of the whole “For love of the game” type player. When he stole home, I was an Astros fan for life!
by Its Gonna Happen on Aug 16, 2011 3:47 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
If Thome gets in next year and Bagwell does not, then there will a lot of arguing and upset people. The primary reason given last year by HOF voters who didn’t vote for Bagwell was the speculation regarding steroids. If they are going to continue to rely on that kind of speculation to keep Bagwell out of the HOF, then they should apply it to Thome also.
Setting aside the steroids witch hunt, I think Thome gets a serious ding for his lack of defensive prowess. The defensive deficiencies eventually result in compiling higher career counting stats through the DH. I wouldn’t totally disregard what he accomplished as a DH, but I think that period should be discounted somewhat. Other DH hitters have not gotten into the HOF yet. Edgar Martinez is the best DH candidate for the HOF, but he did not get the votes last year.
by clack on Aug 16, 2011 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I know you know this clack
but Thome has yet to retire so would have a 5 year wait. That said if Bagwell still isn’t in and Thome goes first ballot people really will have an issue.
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by Timothy De Block on Aug 16, 2011 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
That confused me too at first.
by Its Gonna Happen on Aug 16, 2011 6:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
brain freeze on my part….I was getting too emotional about the way a lot of the media seems to be treating Thome differently from Bags on the steroids issue.
by clack on Aug 16, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just my own two cents re: the Hall...
It is stupid beyond words that certain HoF voters dismiss guys in their first year of eligibility because they’re not what they describe as “First Ballot Material.” What a load of BS! If a guy is a Hall of Famer, he’s a Hall of Famer!
I don’t know if this would apply to Baggy or not, just stating my opinion on that topic.
Well...
If a guy isn’t a clear cut kinda guy other players that are running out of eligibility have to be considered more strongly. Some don’t even deserve to be on the list imo, but what a freagin privilege THAT even is. To get in the hall is rare as heck, but even to be CONSIDERED for the hall is a huge accomplishment. In the Hall or not, Bagwell had a great career and just the fact that we’re having this debate, that the national media is having this debate, is huge kudos for Bags. Biggio may be our only representative from the Rockem Sockem ‘Stros Killer B’s era, but we all know well who the best and most feared hitter on that team was. Mr. Bagwell. Again, HALL OR NOT, he’s still had a fantastic career. Few people would ask for more in their wildest dreams.
First time poster by the way...
Call me a bandwagon fan, call me what you like, but I haven’t watched a single game this year other than a couple at bats at a friend’s house. And every time the game gets turned off in disgust. I love the ‘Stros. I look at the box score every day. JD Martinez, Altuve, Paredes..Norris…we have a pretty good young core there, but still, I just can’t stomach it. I got to see Biggio from his first year until his last. Bags, beginning to end. I watched every game (alot anyway, and mannnny in person). I loved the game because those guys loved the game and they were winners. We had pitching, hitting, defense, energy, character, personality (Lima time! Rip…I worked at Ruggles in Enron field back in the day and I got to meet him…he really was a friendly guy….so was Milo)…and today…Jesus, it’s so hard to get to know new players when you are still mourning and yearning for the good ole days. lol…call me sentimental…kinda like the Luv ya blue Warren Moon teams…man, I’m begging the Texans to replicate that success. I loved sports back then. The Texans have me hopeful at least…but these ‘Stros…i don’t know the culture on this blog and I’m not trying to be negative but they suck. Drayton the billionaire (and a 15% tipper by the way, cheapskate dipshit), is bailing out, our farm system is crap….here’s hoping that J.D. Martinez is our next Bags!!!
Based on the lack of posts on this article I am guessing that all of Houston is as disheartened as I am. We don’t support losers. It’s true. Going to a ballgame isn’t a required social activity like it is at Wrigley. We don’t have the history of the Yanks or either Sox team. We’re a team that couldn’t hold on to Beltran and Kent (I think Kent was gone anyway, I am not 100 percent) to give us enough O to beat that gimpy Chi-Sox team in 05. That still pisses me off. With just a BIT more offense the parade would have come to H-Town…Anyway, my 3:30 am nostalgic rant has come to a close. Good day all.
I dunno...
I don’t care if you are a DH or an everyday player, 600 HR is a great plateau to reach. Considering Thome hasn’t got a sniff of steroid allegations surrounding him, he might be the best of the recent bunch to make it to 600 other than Griffey.
I like Bagwell and think he deserves HOF recognition. However, to cheapen Thome’s accomplishment to make a point for Bags is wrong for both parties.
Jeff is being held w/ guilt by association by some HOF voters for playing during the steroids era. Looking at his stats as they progressed thru the 90s, I can understand why. That being said, as long as no smoking gun appears, he should get in within the next few years. Since I am going to the 2013 ceremony for Biggio, it would be incredible if that was Bags year too.
My other hope is Billy Wagner gets into the HOF before the end of the decade to make it a trifecta for the once-devoid Astros HOF section at Cooperstown…
"’I'm on a quest to claim absolute victory on every front!" ~ Charlie Sheen
I just don’t see any basis to distinguish Thome from Bagwell in terms of the steroids allegations. I don’t agree with the guilt by association, but if writers are going to do it they need to do it for all the sluggers in that era.
by clack on Aug 17, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs



























