The Problem With Trade Valuations: Kepp Edition
A little while before Jeff Keppinger was traded to the San Francisco Giants for pitching prospects Henry Sosa and Jason Stoffel, I had written an article about his value, concluding that Kepp was worth about $11.1 million in surplus value. That means, the amount of production Houston could expect get from him, less his salary, meant he was still a very valuable player, even if he profiled more as a bench player on a contender.
What kind of value did Houston get for Kepp?
Two Grade C prospects, according to John Sickels. On top of that, one of those players was above 23 years old, which changes his worth. If you add up the values of similar prospects, that gave Houston a return of $3.6 million. Considering that the draft picks from a Type B free agent would be worth $2.5 million and a Type A (which Kepp currently profiles as) is worth $5 mill. That means Houston barely broke even with his free agent compensation, much less his surplus value on the field.
Now, my figure was assuming Kepp would average 1.5 fWAR over the next two seasons. Despite missing a month at the beginning of 2011, he still has produced 0.7 fWAR already this season. To get down to the value Houston actually got, Kepp would need to post 0.7 fWAR this season and 1.0 fWAR next season, plus get to Type B status. Without Type B, he'd merely have to post 1.0 fWAR each of the next two season while under team control.
Why is there a difference between how we are rating this trade and what Ed Wade got? Well, part of that is he got less than Kepp was worth, but it's also telling of how teams view these kinds of pieces. Kepp isn't a great player. He isn't a defensive whiz, he's not a big power guy, he's just a good hitter who's locked in for another two years. Teams value that differently, and it seems like the Giants and Astros both value him less than his actual value, much less his surplus value to the team.
Okay, so we've established Kepp isn't well-thought of enough to earn a bigger deal than this. What's left to discuss?
Let's run through what Sosa and Stoffel would have to do to provide value in the long-term. See, now that we have a deal, we can figure out not just prospective values for players, but actual performance. The Astros now have 12 years of big league service time from these two players (potentially). That automatically trumps Kepp's year and a half.
But, we can also see a hole in this kind of analysis. See, for Houston to get value out of this deal, they just need one of the two pitchers to make the big leagues and play two years for minimum salary while posting 0.5 fWAR in each of those two seasons. That'll give Houston about $4 million in surplus value. If that same guy lasts all six years at 0.5 fWAR each year, the Astros will come very, very close to getting full surplus value in return for Kepp.
It's a risk. To make these values work, you have to be confident that one of these prospects will make the majors, and that's no certain thing. Sosa especially looks bust-able even as he dominated on Thursday night. But, if a talent evaluator falls in love with a player and thinks he can play in the majors (however briefly), that could return enough value for a guy like Kepp. Sure, Eric Surkamp may have a better pedigree and, thus, a better chance for making the major and, thus, giving Houston value in return. But, there's still risk even with him.
To make a long post short...Houston needs one of these prospects to put up two years like Wilton Lopez for this deal to make sense. Since even that feels like a bit of a stretch, I think Ed Wade may have lost this trade...
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I dont remember where I read it but
Somewhere I read that the Astros were committed to making Sosa a starter.
Yes the comments from Wade on the trade is that they plan to use him as a starter.
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by Timothy De Block on Jul 22, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I think that good teams (which will be the buyers at the deadline) view Keppinger as a back up player around the infield. The Giants obviously needed a back up player with Sanchez and Tejada injured. But I suspect that they view Sanchez as a superior player (and the starter when he returns) because of his defense as well as his experience as a starter. The Tigers needed a 3d baseman, and they probably don’t view Keppinger as a starting quality third baseman. Keppinger can accumulate WAR on a bad team like the Astros where he is a starter. But next year, he may not be able to accumulate a lot of WAR if he is relegated to a back up role with the Giants, or another team if he is non-tendered. I’m sure that reputation factors in this too—-Kepp’s history as a utility player and reputation as a weak defender, as opposed to Sanchez’s gold glove and history as a former batting champion.
by clack on Jul 22, 2011 10:12 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
From what I’ve read it appears they’ll use Keppinger at the shortstop position in the short term.
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by Timothy De Block on Jul 22, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Well he is a horrible choice for starting at shortstop in the long term. I think Angel Sanchez is a better defensive shortstop.
by clack on Jul 22, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I read an article in the SF paper that said he would start at 2B till Hall and Sanchez get over injuries and could fill in now and then at 3B. I wonder if its a platoon with Fontenot – maybe he’s injured. His nickname at the SBN site is funny – Fontegnome.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
This is kind of hits on what I was talking about earlier: these trade value calculations are somewhat worthless. If GMs don’t use them when they’re making the trades, then what’s the point? I can say that my used car is worth $12,000, but if my highest offer comes out to $8000, then the car is worth $8000.
I will go on record staring that I am happy with the return for Kepp, mostly because I am a realist, and didn’t expect the Astros to get much for him in the first place.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 22, 2011 10:15 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
and if you decide to keep the used car it’s worth $12,000.
These calculations aren’t worthless, they set an objective standard for which we can base how well the trade did or didn’t work out initially.
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by Timothy De Block on Jul 22, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, what’s the point in hanging on to Keppinger when the team is dead set on trading him to clear space for Altuve? You have to take the best offer out there, and Brian Sabean would laughed his head off if he saw what this trade calculator said Kepp was worth.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 22, 2011 10:24 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Who said they were set on bringing up altuve? Altuve was brought up because the kepp trade opened an opportunity for him to be brought up. They easily could have waited another year.
by Subber10 on Jul 22, 2011 10:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Based on comments Wade made, I was under the impression that Altuve was the impetuous for dealing Kepp so far from the deadline. But I do think that they could have waited.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 22, 2011 10:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s wade hyping his move. It does seem he’s cutting payroll.
by Subber10 on Jul 22, 2011 10:38 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The Conspiracy Post on Altuve I think would apply right here
It was a great post and really did make sense
I’m perhaps in-between the two comments on WAR valuation. It does provide information on economic value. It’s nice to have an objective quantification that takes into account salary, future value, etc. I would consider it as one piece of information, but it’s not the totality of what goes into the real world trade calculus. For instance, a lot of people here are shocked that teams might consider Beltran’s trade value as close to Pence’s. But I think the reputation factor is a big factor. I’m suspect that contending teams think about Beltran’s career offensive stats in the playoffs and let that color their valuation.
by clack on Jul 22, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right and you don’t want to base your decision entirely on one tool, but it’s still a useful tool.
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by Timothy De Block on Jul 22, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
*stating. Damn typos. I hate this autocorrect on my phone.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 22, 2011 10:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Beyond all of the things mentioned
I don’t think teams were buying into the free agent compensation as having much (if any) value. They probably assume Keppinger will either fall off and lose his Elias status, or accept arbitrtation if offered.
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These are hit or miss trades. You are trying to find an undervalued piece because the initial value to bargain with is not high.
The real value that Kepp brings is a passable 2B defensively that brings +WAR because of good contact skills. There is no reason to assume he wouldn’t have been able to play with positive results til he is a FA. That said he is likely to lose value suddenly out of physical prime.
This is the exact situation Mike Lamb presented. In Lambs case he was kept and presented value to a good club.
So the evaluation I put on the trade is either Wade likes one of the guys offered or he just wanted to do something so it looks like he wants to be GM in the future.
I would have kept Kepp because he is the type of player a transitional or bad team needs so they don’t rush players like Altuve. I think penciling in Kepp for the next few years helps the Astros more than the negligible value they got. I think putting a C grade on Sosa is very generous. I would call him a guy fixing to lose a job in AA, much less impacting the MLB roster. The RP sounds like he can throw but who knows.
My first mistake was assuming you knew what I was talking about.
On the one hand, Wade didn’t get close to what I thought Keppinger was worth.
On the other hand, Wade was under the gun, has limited time to possibly put together several bigger trades, and needed time to focus on those. Not to mention that I think Stoffel and Sosa are interesting prospects that both have upside; I actually do think that Stoffel very well could put up Wilton Lopez #’s.
RE: Value calculator
When the WAR calculator article was released, I liked it because it was interesting, but was skeptical of its validity because it didn’t give real-world examples of how actual trades measured up.
WAR value has been shown to be a pretty good predictor of the salaries for free agent signings. But I haven’t seen any articles which attempt to compare a significant sample of actual trades with the WAR value predicted results. There are a couple of assumptions to the WAR value calculator that are problematic. One is the prediction of future WAR value, but we can probably come close to what front offices think. The other is the value of prospects and draft choices. Everybody uses the same study for those values, but how accurate are those valuations, particularly as trends change over time? But if you think about it, the WAR value calculator is the only quantitative metric whe have to compare trades. Here is a study I think would be interesting: compare trade values at the deadline and in the off-season for various types of players. And I think the only way to do that would be using the WAR trade value calculation.
by clack on Jul 22, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

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