Trade Scenarios: Michael Bourn To The San Francisco Giants
We've got the first requested trade scenario, this one coming from our own Sean Feist (aka native_astro). The reason I chose this one out of his (many) suggestions was that it gave us a chance to look both at a player and team we hadn't reviewed before. By going over Bourn's value with the Atlanta Braves, we'd be rehashing a system we've already discussed, so this provides a few new pieces we didn't have.
Thinking about Bourn, his value below turns out to be almost as high as Pence and should fetch just as high a price on the trade market. Of course, as I also discuss below, the Astros will probably not get full value for him.
The Giants have been one of the more active members in trade rumors, as they look for ways to upgrade their offense again this season. I'm sure Scott Boras would also like this move, as it'd get his client on a team that will get more exposure in the playoffs, so there are plenty of reasons this makes sense. It's also likely that Bourn will be in play this trading deadline, though it's an open question if Wade will pull the trigger on him.
With that said, onto the analysis...
Let's use the Trade Value Calculator to see what Bourn's value might be. As a refresher, the TVC takes Bourn's projected fWAR totals over the two seasons he's under team control. Since his salary can't be known yet for 2012, we assume that his salary will be 80 percent of his total value.
By looking at that fWAR projection and multiplying that by the cost of a win on the free agent market, we get his value based on performance. Subtract his current and future salaries from that, and you'll get his surplus value, which is what we use to calculate these trade scenarios.
Based on Bourn's stats through half this season, I've got him down for 5.5 fWAR, then 4.5 for 2012. Add to that a projected Type B free agency at the end of those two years, and Bourn's surplus value is at $27.2 million. That's a pretty good chunk of change, and is probably more than many of you expected of him. But, it also reflects the value of his skills in the field and on the base paths, which some contender would love to add.
A quick refresher on the value of prospects shows us that a Top 50 pitcher is worth 15.9 million, a Top 75 hitting prospect is worth 14.2 million, a Top 100 hitting prospect is worth 12.5 million, a Top 100 pitcher is worth 9.8 million, a Grade B hitter is worth 5.5 million, a Grade B pitcher is worth 7.3 million, a Grade C+ pitcher 23 or older is worth 1.5 million and a Grade C hitter under 22 is worth 0.7 million. So, the Astros might almost expect to get back a Top 50 pitcher and a Top 100 hitter for Bourn.
The problem with that is most teams won't value Bourn as highly as he's worth. It seems like we're a broken record on this point, but Bourn is more valuable to the Astros than he is to another team on the trading market. It's that simple. So, to trade him, the Astros may have to get less than his actual value, which is something they may not decide to do.
But, since we have a framework for Bourn's value, let's look at some prospects from San Francisco's system.
1) Zach Wheeler, RHP - The prize of this list, Wheeler was the sixth overall pick in the 2009 draft. He had a slow start to his pro career, but things are starting to pick up for him. He's pitching at San Jose in the brutal Cal League, but has been really good, striking out 88 in 76 2/3 innings with a 3.76 ERA. If there's a knock against him, it's that his walk rate is really, really high and will probably get hit harder once he's moving on to harder leagues. Still, Wheeler is a Top 75 pitching prospect and should be the jewel of any trade.
2) Francisco Peguero, OF - An adequate Bourn replacement, Peguero has many of the same qualities. He's a plus runner, has a very strong throwing arm in the outfield and uses his speed to hit for a pretty good average. If there's a knock against him, it's that his swing doesn't lend itself to power very well. He also doesn't walk as much as you'd like, but that can develop in time. He also needs some refinement with his baserunning, but the talent was there enough to earn a B- grade from John Sickels.
3) Gary Brown, OF - The second first-round pick to show up on this list, Brown is very similar to Peguero and may be more similar to Michael Bourn. He's got a pure 80 speed on the scouting scale and, as Sickels said in his book, "terrorizes pitchers with (his speed) on the base paths." The big concern about him coming out of college was his walk rate, which was nonexistent and didn't show up in a brief pro debut. It'd be harder to trade him (read: he'd need to be a PTBNL) since he was just drafted last June, but Brown might be worth it. If his walk rate stick around 7-8 percent in the pros, he'll be the perfect leadoff hitter. Sickels has him as a Grade B player, but that should shoot up quickly, since Brown was recently ranked No. 33 on BA's Midseason Top 50 prospect list.
4) Eric Surkamp, LHP - Another guy who has really raised his stock this season, Surkamp is a lefty with a killer strikeout rate. He has passed the Double-A test with flying colors, posting a 1.78 ERA with 118 strikeouts in 96 1/3 innings. He's older (23) and doesn't have an overwhelming fastball, but what he's doing in Double-A with less velocity makes me think he might have a higher ceiling than Dallas Keuchel. Would be a great addition to the system, even though he's just a C+ prospect by Sickels' ratings.
5) Chris Dominguez, 3B - You could easily put Conor Gillaspie here (even though he's made the majors this season), because the Giants have some depth at third base and the Astros do not. Dominguez is the less-developed prospect, though he's also an older prospect at 24. He recently got the bump up to Double-A and is hitting well there. He's showing some power and a pretty good contact rate, though he could walk more. Dominguez is the intriguing throw-in to a deal like this and may profile similarly to Chris Johnson. Sickels has him as a Grade C guy.
6) Hector Sanchez, C - The first player on here that wasn't listed on BA's Top 30 prospects this season, Sanchez has some things that could be very appealing for Houston. For one, he's a great defensive catcher who's hitting pretty well at Triple-A right now. He's also fairly young at 21, especially for his level, though he may have just been called up since Buster Posey went down. But, that also means the Giants may not need a bang-up catching prospect and put him in play in a deal. Sickels grades him out as a C prospect and thinks his future is as a reserve catcher. For me, that's why he's intriguing, because he could be the next Humberto Quintero for Houston, once Q proves too injury prone or expensive to stick on the team.
Where does that leave us? Time to make some deals...
Trade One: Houston trades Michael Bourn to the Giants for Zach Wheeler, Francisco Peguero and Hector Sanchez - In this trade, Houston gets a big, big pitching prospect from a team that is much like Atlanta in having good, young rotational depth. They'd be taking a risk on Wheeler's control, but in getting Peguero too as a potential Bourn replacement, the Astros would have two future big leaguers. The value of this deal ($20 million) is less than Bourn's probably worth, but as we mentioned earlier, Houston's unlikely to get full value for their speedy center fielder.
Trade Two: Houston trades Michael Bourn to the Giants for Gary Brown, Eric Surkamp and Chris Dominguez - Much like the trade above, this one focuses on one big prospect and a couple more intriguing guys. Brown is the big get, providing a future Bourn replacement and a prospect to rival George Springer as the top prospect in the system. Surkamp is a pretty advanced pitching prospect on a team that, as we mentioned, has good rotational depth already. He would also give Houston another advanced guy to pair with all the Corpus Christi players. Dominguez would be a throw-in, but he's got the same potential that Chris Johnson has showed and is younger. Depending on how you value Brown, this deal comes pretty close to getting full value for Bourn.
Trade Three: Houston trades Michael Bourn to the Giants for Wheeler, Brown and Surkamp - This is the most unlikely trade, and also the most valuable one. First off, the Giants would almost certainly not trade their last two first-round picks in one deal. Secondly, that's a whole lot of value for a player who won't be perceived as being worth that. Thirdly, the Giants are going to have to face the reality that their window is smaller with the current lineup and they'll need to pair players like Brown with Posey and Sandoval to compete in the future. Still, this would be a big-time win for Houston.
We could also talk about throwing in guys like Sergio Romo or Madison Bumgarner into deals, but I feel a team trying to get back to the World Series would be less likely to hurt its major league roster for a player like Bourn. What do you think? Which deals work best for both sides? Are there any players I missed who would fit into a trade with San Fran?
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Trade scenario number three is the only one that I got excited about when reading this. For this to happen I guess the Giants would have to get desparate and maybe lose on Carlos Beltran.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 2:29 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Giant fan here and your ignorance Mr. Coleman is laughable
Trade one: you’re outta your f***ing mind;
Trade two: you’re outta your f***ing mind;
Trade three: you’re beyond help.
If your GM approached Brian Sabean with any of these three deals, he’d be told to take Michael Bourne and stick him up your Astros.
by betterthanbochy on Jul 15, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Pitching won't carry you all the way.
With multiple players in your starting lineup flirting with the Mendoza line everyday, all of these 1-0 games are scary. Especially since your best hitter, Buster Posey is out for the season. Michael Bourn would be a great replacement for Andres Torres in center field. Bourn can hit for average & doubles power, steal 50 bags a year, and he can play spectacular defense. You don’t have any players who can do that. If I was Brian Sabean, I would be open minded for potential deals to upgrade the offense.
If the Astros could show any sign of being ahead, rather than being behind the competition, maybe, just maybe the Astros will be good in the future.... Maybe
This is the time when GMs will pay over value to help a team win a pennant. These are on the high end, but are conceivable.
For future reference, your comments are welcome, but try to respect other commenters and writers.
by Subber10 on Jul 15, 2011 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He said Mr.
Follow my ramblings on Twitter .
by Timothy De Block on Jul 15, 2011 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Ya!
We can dream right? Let us have our fun will ya? No point in dreaming for a Giants friendly trade for us, especially since we know Wade will be making trades to almost certainly save his job.
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 11:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
While I don't think trade 3 is plausible
This is overdramatic. If the Giants were to trade for Bourn, they’d have to part with one of Brown or Wheeler, full stop. Getting as much extra in the package as David listed seems unlikely to me though.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Not really liking any of these that much...
I guess I am just not that impressed with the position players in the deal, I would like a Bumgardener paired with Gillaspie and maybe Surkamp. I just think that we are way to right handed in our lineup. Brown and Peguero both right handers leadoff types are a dime a dozen to me, I would rather get back some power, we have Bourgeois, Durango and Shuck for some leadoff skills available. I know that Gillaspie is not a power guy but he is a lefty swinging hit machine like Wallace which would be nice.
Not getting Bum for Bourn
Let alone all three of those. Sorry, that’s just crazy.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
- would work.
It appears that based on surplus value, this is what we could expect for each player:
Keppinger- 1 pitcher ranked in the 50-125 range or 1 hitter ranked in the 75-150 range. Getting anywhere near the upper limit of that range would be a huge win for Houston.
Bourn, Pence, and Wandy appear to have roughly double that value, meaning each should bring in either 2 50-125 pitchers, 2 75-150 hitters, or 1 of each. I think it might be hard to find a match at that value, but that is what I would suggest Ed Wade stick to.
I’d be interested in what the surplus value of Myers, Barmes, and Quintero would be. I would put Myers somewhere just below Keppinger’s value (meaning we could expect 1 grade B prospect in return for Myers). I would imagine Barmes and Q would be about 1/2 that, meaning each could expect to net 1 grade C prospect.
That 1st line is a typo; I would do a trade built around Brown and Wheeler.
by Snake Diggity on Jul 15, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you there. Trade three would be great.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 3:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Again, though, that's simply unrealistic
Bourn for Brown and change OR Wheeler and change would be more realistic, but not both. I’d be happy with getting one of those two.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Id say at this point our need for pitching trumps the need for outfielders.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 3:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Orem, I take it you don’t give much creedence to the prospect value calculator or the player surplus value calculator?
by Snake Diggity on Jul 15, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
It's decent as a rough estimate
In the case mentioned above—getting both Brown and Wheeler—in my opinion they exceed Bourn’s actual value as stated above.
But beyond that I think Bourn’s market value is lower than his actual value. Teams do not value defense as much as they value home runs or starting pitching for instance. So the combination of those two things I think would be something like a $10M difference between the actual value we can get for Bourn, and between the value of such a return (Brown, Wheeler, Surkamp).
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
by OremLK on Jul 15, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most of these prospects peak my interest
But with the need for pitching right now Id like both Wheeler and Surkamp but I’d doubt we’d be able to get them both. With the addition of Durango or whatever his name is we don’t absolutely need a CFer in the deal to replace Bourn so the 3B would be a nice throw in instead
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:19 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Actually
With as good as Wheeler and Surkamp look Id take those two and a throw in lower guy if they’d give it to us. I like both pitchers enough at first glance I don’t think that the Giants would package them both in one deal though.
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would be on board with Wheeler and Surkamp.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 3:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
New scenario
What about Wheeler (14.2), Surkamp (1.5), Sanchez (.7) and Dominguez (.7) for Bourn (27.2). It would be value wise not the great for us but would net in some intriguing prospects that we desperately need. I am not sure they would go for the quantity of them although it is a top 75, a C+ and two C prospects isn’t a world changer. I think it would be fair for both sides.
How badly do they want Bourn?
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Probably not as much as we want to get these prospects.
by blazemule on Jul 15, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol probably true
We likey prospects
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:35 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That is still far too much for the Giants to give up for Bourn, but you’re claiming its not a good return for us? I’m not looking to pick a fight, but how do you figure that?
by Stupendous Man on Jul 15, 2011 3:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with you that the last scenario was overkill. The most hopeful package for us could be It’s gonna happens, Wheeler and Surkamp.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 3:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I won’t pretend that I know how this Trade Value calculator works, but it must be flawed, because most of these trade proposals have been downright ridiculous (such as the one claiming we could get Jacob Turner for Wandy).
We could MAYBE get Wheeler for Bourn, but that would be about it, Wheeler plus one filler prospect would be most likely.
Gary Brown would not be on the table for Bourn, in my opinion. And the Giants would never Baumgarner for Bourn, not even for Pence. No disrespect to David Coleman, but most of these suggestions seem way off base.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 15, 2011 3:30 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
That’s perception versus actual value. Bourns perceived value is way below his actual value.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 3:33 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I kind of agree
If we were the giants would we trade Folty or Lyles for Michael Bourn? (I know that doesn’t make perfect sense but work with me as I don’t know their system like I do ours.) Would you trade DDJ and Kuechel for Mikey? I just don’t see Mikey as enough of a game changer to get top prospects for, plus he’ll only be a rental.
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would definitely trade DDJ and Kuechel for Bourn in reverse, if we were in playoff mode.
I do not think DDJ is very good, fast but not really the kind of hitter we should have gone for in Round 1, I think that was our worst draft pick in recent memory for me.
I completely agree
He’s not the kind of hitter we should have got in the first round. And for a secons baseman he’s an inadequate bat. As a CFer though he has Bourn speed and a capable bat. I think it was a mistake to make him a 2B.
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 3:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I dont understand drafting a guy that could be a great CFer and turning him in a 2b
That one baffles me all the way. Does DDJ have an arm? Also I would take both of the pitchers but none of the position players sound interesting at all
I think DDJ’s arm is below average for an outfielder which is why they put him at second. I do agree that we have pretty decent depth at second so there’s no need there. The two pitchers do look attractive.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 4:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
DDJ has more value as a 2d baseman, and his defense projects better at 2d base than CF.
by clack on Jul 15, 2011 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I meant to say no need to trade for a second baseman. I like DDJ at second though.
by conroestro on Jul 15, 2011 5:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
If Houston were a playoff contender with a weakness in centerfield, I would GLADLY give up DDJ and Keuchel for Bourn. Hell, I would gladly give up Folty and DDJ for Bourn.
The whole point of the game is to win championships. If you have a chance to significantly increase your odds of making that happen, there’s a lot of value to doing so.
by Snake Diggity on Jul 15, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
For these scenarios to work, you have to accept two things. First, you have to accept WAR through FanGraphs methodology and the theory that every Win Above Replacement costs a certain amount on the free agent market. If you can get that far, you can then accept a reasonable value for any player, judging by projections for future production and salary.
The second assumption is on prospects, and this seems to be the one where you have the biggest problem. See, the research Victor Wang did to come up with the values I used above are based on what a player in those situations are worth to their team. Not every prospect works out, so there’s a bigger risk factor than an established major leaguer. There’s no way we can judge whether Zach Wheeler will be a good major leaguer or whether Gary Brown will play well above Double-A. We know Michael Bourn is one of the best center fielders in the game. So, their relative values are reflected above.
There will always be teams who overvalue prospects. There will also be teams who undervalue their own players. What we’re trying to do is find an acceptable framework without asking for the moon. I know it seems that the scenarios are asking for a lot above, and Brown may not be available in the above scenarios, but if you’re strictly looking at value, he is. Bourn right now will help the Giants win more than Gary Brown will. So, it boils down to what Brian Sabean wants to do.
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jul 15, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the explaination. I still don’t necessarily agree with the some of the proposals, but I understand the logic behind them now.
Is this trade value calculator something that GMs use as well? Because if it were, it seems like there would be a lot more top talent involved in trades then you often see.
by Stupendous Man on Jul 15, 2011 9:33 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
No, it was created by Sky Kalkman, who used to write for Beyond the Box Score. I believe he writes for Baseball Prospectus now.
I’m sure there are GMs out there that understand risk with prospects and what defense is worth. That was the whole concept behind Moneyball, after all. However, I think every team will generally overvalue it’s own and undervalue other teams players. This is just a way to analyze what’s fair in any given deal.
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jul 16, 2011 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think a Brown trade is possible.
The PTBNL trade has to be completed in six months. A player can’t be traded for 1 year after he is drafted. The PTBNL mechanism works for in certain situations when you can line up those limiting factors to coincide.
by clack on Jul 15, 2011 5:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m a little confused. You both mention Brown not being available, but wasn’t he drafted last year? Am I thinking of the right guy?
I may have misunderstood the article...
I’m basing this on the article saying that Brown was drafted this past June. I took that to mean 2011. If he was drafted in 2010, then yes, a PTBNL probably makes it work. The 1 year period is based on when he signed. I’m not sure if that was after July 31, but if that is so, then the PTBNL may have to be used.
by clack on Jul 15, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gary Brown was drafted 13 months ago
And has been tearing up the Cali League this year.
so he would be a great grab but they prob wont give himup
Firesale! Everyone must go!
by astrosfan1989 on Jul 16, 2011 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Pitching
Seems like the Giants have a surplus of pitching. So scenario 1 seems like the most likely.
Wheeler
How would you compare Wheeler to Minor or Vizcaino from Atlanta?
I was talking to Giants fans and they really don't want to give up prospects for Bourn.
Pence, maybe, but what could really help them out would be Jeff Keppinger. Freddy Sanchez is out for the season along with Buster Posey. They really need some offense & Keppinger would make sense for them. Not sure how much they would want to give up for him though.
If the Astros could show any sign of being ahead, rather than being behind the competition, maybe, just maybe the Astros will be good in the future.... Maybe
Im not sure if they are the best team to trade with for Bourn but who knows.
Firesale! Everyone must go!
I think Davids comment hit it on....
Wait wha…David…comment??? Morpheous, somethings wrong with the Matrix again! He said you have to calculate for prospects future potential (Or something like that). That is the key to some of these scenarios. IMO both pitchers project to be a front 3 starter, or if not exactly project, have the potential to be. I think a good but not great overall CFer could bring 1 of these pitchers and some change, depending on how desperate the Giants are for Bourn. If we were to include Kepp in the trade though…
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 15, 2011 11:25 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Hey, if you’d rather, I will just write once a week and comment every day. Actually, that’d be much easier. Maybe I like the Matrix better that way…
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jul 16, 2011 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Lol
You do write a lot, and we all appreciate it, but comments are where you get to interact with your peeps main…
by Its Gonna Happen on Jul 16, 2011 1:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nah, the real reason I haven’t been commenting as much is I’m not desk-bound any more. At my old job, I used to have a lot of “downtime” where I could cruise the site and comment a bunch. For the past few months, I just haven’t had any downtime. I will try to get into the comments sections a little more, though. I miss you guys :)
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jul 16, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
What does everybody think about a Michael Bourn for Ian desmond trade?
When you ask Carlos Lee what his favorite place to play is, and he anwsers with the words, anywhere with a Buffet. You know theirs a real problem.
by orangeblood kid on Jul 18, 2011 1:47 PM CDT reply actions

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