Trade Scenarios: The Detroit Tigers And Wandy Rodriguez
I was going to write something similar to what Brian McTaggart already did, looking at where the Astros stand at midseason. But, that thought depressed me too much to go through with it. Instead, I was very intrigued by this report by Fox Sports' Jon Paul Morosi, talking about what the Detroit Tigers are thinking in terms of trades.
See, Detroit recently took over the lead in the American League Central, after the once-front running Cleveland Indians have regressed a bit. Unfortunately, Detroit's rotation is a bit lacking and they're being forced to turn to a "Furbush" to get through the next few weeks.
Which is exactly why they're looking for pitching right now. Add in that they're also looking for a left-hander and voila! A trade rumor immediately appears. I'm not opposed to Wandy getting traded; in fact, I think he's the most likely candidate.
So, let's break down what a possible deal with Detroit could look like, in this topsy-turvy world where Ed Wade could be making this his last trade as an Astros GM.
First things first, let's list the possible prospects Houston would be interested in.
Jacob Turner, right-handed pitcher - The top prospect in Detroit's system, Turner is a young fireballer who is having a decent season with the Double-A Erie SeaWolves. He's struck out 72 in 86 2/3 innings and has pretty good control on top of that. His best pitch is his fastball which he throws 92-94, but his curve isn't far behind. Turner is a Top 25 prospect in the majors, though, and probably wouldn't get included in a deal.
Andy Oliver, left-handed pitcher - You may remember Oliver from the drama surrounding his last years at Kentucky. The lefty was ruled ineligible because he talked with an agent about the draft following his junior year, fought the decision and was ultimately denied his appeal. That meant he went a year without pitching for anyone but the Witchita AirHogs before being drafted by Detroit last summer. Oliver even made the majors last season, but didn't pitch terribly well. He's currently at Triple-A, where's he's got a 5.00 ERA with 72 strikeouts in 75 2/3 innings. His problem seems to be in control, as he's walking guys at a clip around 4.00 BB/9.
Francisco Martinez, third baseman: An interesting guy, who's also reached Double-A at the ripe age of 20. Martinez was ranked as the fourth-best prospect in Detroit's system (ranked overall at No. 25 by Baseball America) this offseason. He's not going to be one of Tim's favorites, as his on-base percentage sits around .322 this season, but he shows power and a little bit of speed (though he gets caught a lot). He's also got the arm to play third, if the other parts of his defense can get cleaned up some. That doesn't appear to have happened yet, as he's made 22 errors so far this season at third.
Cale Iorg, shortstop: The Astros know his family a little bit, having drafted brother Eli in the second round a few years back. Cale plays shortstop, but can't hit a lick. BA's writeup suggests it's because he can't see breaking balls well enough to react to them. The reason he made it past short season ball with that skill set is that he's gifted with the glove. That might be enough for Houston to take a chance on him as a little Angel Sanchez insurance.
Casper Wells, outfielder: The first major leaguer we've gotten to on this list, Wells has appeared in 52 games for Detroit this season. He hasn't found as much success as last year, when he hit .322 with a .538 slugging percentage in 99 plate appearances. The 26-year old might be an intriguing piece to add in, giving the Astros a backup outfield bat with some pop. He can also play center field and is a bit of a power/speed combo guy, stealing 25 bases and hitting 25 home runs in the minors in 2008.
Robbie Weinhardt, right-hander: Had to throw in a reliever, didn't I? Weinhardt pitched in two games this season with the big league team before getting dropped all the way back to Double-A. He's having a heck of a time finding a rhythm this season, but the potential is still there. May be a nice buy-low option.
With that short list, what kinds of deals make the most sense? Before we start throwing out trade scenarios, let's get some parameters set up. Using that tried and true Trade Value Calculator, we can pinpoint Wandy's value. Because of his start to this season, let's tweak Wandy's expected WAR to 3.0 for this season, 3.5 for the two following and 3.0 for the final season of his contract. That leaves him with a surplus value of 16.7 million, which is still plenty valuable.
A quick refresher on the value of prospects shows us that a Top 25 pitcher is worth 15.9 million, a Grade B pitcher (Oliver) is worth 7.3 million, a Grade C+ pitcher 23 or older (Weinhardt) is worth 1.5 million and a Grade C hitter under 22 (Martinez) is worth 0.7 million. Add in values for Iorg and Wells at around 2 million (because of MLB experience) and we've got a framework for making deals.
Deal No. 1: Jacob Turner, Robbie Weinhardt and Cale Iorg for Wandy Rodriguez - In this trade, which is highly improbable, Houston gets a young power arm who's pitching at Double-A to pair with players like Jose Altuve, Dallas Keuchel, J.D. Martinez and the next wave of Houston's talent. They also get a middle reliever, which Ed Wade loves and a serviceable bench infielder who may never hit. The money is a bit more than Wandy is worth (19.4 million to 16.9 million), but it appears Houston will play hardball on Wandy to get a premium deal. The only problem with this deal is it gives no room for error. Turner must pan out for the Astros to get much value at all out of it.
Deal No. 2: Andy Oliver, Francisco Martinez, Charlie Furbush for Wandy - This one makes a little more sense, as Oliver and Furbush are close to the majors, provide decent value, but wouldn't be crushing for Detroit to give up. In Martinez, the Astros get a player who is toolsy and has some upside, but hasn't tapped into that potential yet. Not a great trade value-wise, as Furbush's value is down right now, but it gives them some relatively quick return.
Deal No. 3: Oliver, Martinez, Wells and Casey Crosby for Wandy - Adding another new name to the mix, simply because Detroit doesn't have enough ammo outside of Turner to get an interesting deal done. This one comes close, though, as both Oliver and Crosby are Grade B guys. The knock on Crosby is that he's had some injury problems and there are questions on whether he can stick as a starter. Wells is also an interesting piece, as he provides some intriguing upside, but doesn't really have a place to play in Houston (unless Hunter Pence also gets moved). This one gets the Astros a value of 17 million, which may be pretty close to Wandy's value.
I could keep going, but those seem like three pretty even trades, going by the Trade Value Calculator. Would you make any of those deals, were you Ed Wade? Do you think any of them are realistic?
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Deal one would be the only one that would really get me excited, therefore I understand that its the least likely to occur. It just seems like Wandy is our biggest trading chip (outside of Pence) and if he were dealt you would have to get at least one impact player in return.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 1:28 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I would love Deal 1, of course, but Deal 3 would be nothing to sneeze at.
I would also like to explore a potential trade of Wandy to the Rockies based around someone like Wilin Rosario or Christian Friedrich.
In terms of Pence potentially being moved, I would prefer a trade to Atlanta. They have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to young pitching; it would be nice to land a Minor or Delgado, among others.
Ruffin can’t be traded until a year after he signed, which is past the trade deadline this year
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jun 30, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
the two trading teams must be in different leagues (i.e., two American League or National League teams cannot engage in a trade with a PTBNL).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_to_be_named_later
J.A. Happ has a better homerun ratio than Carlos Lee... Say What?
Turner, Turner, Turner - Please......
We need good young arms if we want to have a good rotation in the future.
J.A. Happ has a better homerun ratio than Carlos Lee... Say What?
No mention of Nick Castellanos?
I think he’d need to be a PTBNL, but he’d be a decent get who they might be willing to trade. Either Castellanos or Martinez would help shore up third base, and I’d like to see us get one of those two in any Tigers/Astros trade for a substantial piece like Wandy.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Only reason I didn’t include Castellanos is that Houston didn’t seem enamored with him last year in the draft, so I’m not sure how they’d view him now. He’d obviously be ranked higher than Martinez, if we were picking from that system.
I’m a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast foods.
--Ron F'ing Swanson
by David Coleman on Jun 30, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah
but that “disinterest” had a lot to do with the signing bonus
by auclairkeithbc on Jun 30, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Castellanos hasn’t been all that impressive in A ball, but he is very young, which helps to justify peripherals that are less you might like to see from a 3d baseman. I would view him as less than a sure-thing.
by clack on Jun 30, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
To be honest he’s hitting pretty well for a 19-year old having his first pro experience (he barely played short season ball last season). Consider that Bryce Harper is having a historically good debut with .977 OPS.
.764 is not close to that but it’s still solid. I’d say that’s about how well you would have expected Castellanos to hit coming into the season and he has lived up to it. Since he was a top 100 prospect then and his stock hasn’t changed, he’s a top 100 prospect now.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
I just hope Wade doesn't settle for less in a trade.
J.A. Happ has a better homerun ratio than Carlos Lee... Say What?
I like the PTBNL ideas. I guess Oliver and Martinez grouped together wouldn’t be to bad of a deal.
I take it there’s no chance out there that both Martinez and Turner could be lumped together.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 2:01 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Turner will not be traded.
Turner and Castellanos are un-moveable at this time. The tigers expect them to crack the lineup soon, and as much as they need rotational help they are not trading an ace like turner, or future hot corner for a lefty that’s been good, not great in the NL. He had a great year in 09, but ’this year and last he has proven to be a quality 2 or 3 guy in the NL.
If a deal was made, I’d expect the Tigers to give up no more than Casey Crosby, Casper Wells, and A level prospect.
castellanos not so much
he’ll take more tiime than turner, but they love what they have in him.
I really like Furbush
don’t think he’ll be a huge difference-maker, but he’s more than a throw in. i think some people would consider him a top 100 prospect right now. I do like Oliver more, but if we could land both, that would be really nice. the idea of getting martinez thrown in isn’t necessarily ridiculous either. i don’t think we have much of chance at getting turner.
Guess I am going to have to look up this Nick Castenellos guy.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 2:17 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Would...
Jacob Turner and Francisco Martinez for Wandy work?
By the numbers
I’m not impressed by any of the prospects. None of these guys really wow me. Their best pitcher doesn’t avaerage a K per inning and their 3rd base/SS guys are what we already have; a SS that can’t hit and a 3B that is error prone
by Its Gonna Happen on Jun 30, 2011 3:33 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
In Turner’s defense we don’t have a pitching prospect that high close to averaging a strikeout per nine, so he would proba my jump to the top of our prospect list if we got him.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 3:48 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Turner is a Top 25 prospect. He would be a top prospect in almost every farm system. He entered the season ranked higher than Lyles, who is obviously our top prospect.
by Stupendous Man on Jun 30, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
right
i think people are forgetting when names like jake turner and randall delgado get thrown around, that they are at least as well-regarded as jordan lyles. think about the kind of rental you’d need back if the astros were doing well, and decided to part with lyles at this stage of his career? a #3 starter that you’ll have to pay quite a bit for if you want to keep? nah. we would need a STUD back. not hunter pence either. a legit difference-maker.
by auclairkeithbc on Jun 30, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Hoping for an overlay or desparation for a pitcher on some teams behalf.
Also meant to word the last post better. Sorry about that.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 4:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess Wandy needs to throw a no hitter
Tonight that way we can get Turner in return.
In all seriousness though I hope he has dominant starts here in July so his value can be maximized. Just don’t switch catchers on Wandy this start and we should be okay.
by conroestro on Jun 30, 2011 4:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Also,..
The Tigers might also be interested in Keppinger. A package of Wandy & Kepp would obviously bring a little more than just Wandy.
It would be hard to acquire Turner but in any trade for Wandy i’d rather have 1 high upside prospect & filler over 2 or 3 decent average and MLB ready prospects. Even though you run the risk of literally getting nothing if that high-upside prospect doesn’t pan out.
I also like the idea of Wandy to the Rockies. Although the Rockies top pitching prospect (Tyler Matzek) is getting bombed this year. A package around Nolan Arenado and something else is respectable.
I think Bourn to the Braves is a very real possibility. Bourn for Mike Minor or Bourn for Randall Delgado straight up would be a great deal for Houston and I don’t think it’s that far-fetched.
I don’t think Pence will get traded… but if the Giants become interested they might have the goods to get it done. The Giants won’t trade Brandon Belt … but a package headling SP – Zack Wheeler & possibly CF – Gary Brown (Bourn-esque) would be hard to pass up. If the Giants get enamored with the idea of Posey, Pence, Pablo & Belt in the middle of their order to go with their pitching for the next 3 years I could see them being aggressive.
I like Brown
He’s got a little more power than Bourn, but you right, they are very similar players.
by Neil Leininger on Jun 30, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Dealing Wandy
Astros are in a position of strength in that he’s signed for a few more years and they don’t have to deal him. I don’t think they should get rid of Wandy just to get rid of Wandy. He’s been one of the better pitchers in the league the last few years. Of the prospects listed, I don’t see how they could trade Wandy without getting Jacob Turner back in return.
The problem is we don’t have a very good team & we barely have any starting pitching talent in the minors. People keep saying we want to contend in 2 – 3 years, but teams in the world series usually have very good pitching staffs. I don’t think we will be contending in 2 – 3 years, more likely 4 or 5. And I doubt Wandy stays effective till then. If we can trade him for top-notch pitching prospects, we have the chance to have a better team in the future.
J.A. Happ has a better homerun ratio than Carlos Lee... Say What?
by BustaPozee on Jun 30, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Turner is probably untouchable
As was mentioned before, you really need to think of him the same way we’ve thought of Lyles over the past year or two. Even if the Astros weren’t rebuilding would you want to give up Lyles without getting an ace or an impact position player? I wouldn’t. And Turner is arguably a better prospect than Lyles, for that matter.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Rick Porcello
What about him? He’s still young and has been pretty up and down in his career. Tigers might be wiling to move him.
His strikeout rate is low, but I believe he throws a power sinker. Still pretty young too.
I like Turner, but I wouldn’t trade him if I were in their shoes. If I’m in our shoes, I think I might want to hold on to Wandy rather than mixing up with the Tigers if Turner isn’t involved
what about Crosby, Kevin Eichhorn (21 RHP former 3rd round pick with decent numbers in single A , and Lester Oliveros(23 RHP relief pitcher in triple A with good strikeout numbers)
If Turner is involved in any trade to Houston not involving Pence
Well I would call you a liar
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jun 30, 2011 5:30 PM CDT reply actions
Why is it I get the feeling that the listed prospects other than Turner would be rated as bona fide crap if they were in the Astros’ system?
by clack on Jun 30, 2011 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
nah
i don’t think there is much of a bias going on. villar got rated by one source as a top 100, which was crazy high to me. mier was ranked really high after his short season rookie debut. lyles continues to be ranked very highly despite not having the kind of underlying stats that are normally weighed very heavily. altuve is getting a TON of love as a top 100 prospect right now, which is pretty amazing from a normal prospect ranker’s point of view…he’s quite high on a few amateur rankings, but i wouldn’t be shocked to see him in the top 75 even by reputable sources if he keeps hitting well in AA. i think part of the feeling that the astros prospects are being underrated is that heck has been, in large part, drafting players that most sources aren’t in love with to begin with. those sources don’t lower their rank of our draftees once they are drafted – they already had them rated lower than their draft position. we can hardly blame sources for bias based on that. some of the players that are excelling right now are virtual non-prospects, and those non-prospect types never get love from professional sources, no matter what team they are playing for.
also, those other prospects mentioned besides turner are considered solidly behind turner, which is why those other prospects might be reasonable targets. furbush and oliver should be solid MLB starting pitchers. other than lyles, and probably folty, they are far and away better than any other pitching prospects we have. guys like bushue and keuchel or buchanan and velazquez are longshots to be productive MLB starters. i would rather have oliver, and possibly furbush than any pitching prospect we drafted this year, so they aren’t crap.
some of the others mentioned are long shots, but they aren’t the centerpieces, and you can’t knock a deal because a team threw in a long shot or two in addition to a good prospect.
by auclairkeithbc on Jul 1, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Oliver’s performance hasn’t been impressive at AAA and the majors. I question whether he is an improvement over Aneury Rodriguez, for example. I’m just not inclined to give up Wandy for him.
by clack on Jul 1, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
that is short sighted i believe
1) simply clearing wandy’s contract off the books is actually a plus for the future of this organization, assuming that money gets re-invested at some point.
2) wandy is replaceable. starters of his quality aren’t super easy to acquire, but they are fairly plentiful and not too tough to get at a similar salary. again, i’d rather wait a couple years to sign a wandy-equivalent (with 23M over 2 years going into player development or toward some other future free agent signing)
3) oliver could become as good as wandy or close to it anyway, and he’ll be way way cheaper. and he’ll be on the team when the team is competitive, unlike wandy in all likelihood.
basically we get 23M PLUS andy oliver (and furbush or whoever) PLUS a proven wandy-equivalent 2 years from now. W-W-W. (there are more ways we win as well, which i won’t get into here).
by auclairkeithbc on Jul 1, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I think management can’t take too long in attempting to become competitive. If Wandy is traded, the team will likely have to pay significantly more than Wandy will make in that year in order to obtain a comparable starting pitcher. That assumes that we will see continued free agent salary escalation. I’m just not buying that Oliver can provide that capability by 2013.
by clack on Jul 1, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
well
2013 is a big-time longshot to actually make the playoffs, so I’m going to consider 2014 and beyond, which might be slightly aggressive, but still reasonable. Wandy will be the 35 year old version of himself, probably a noticeably worse pitcher. His option is for 13M, with a 2.5M buyout. Is he going to be worth 10.5M then, considering possible salary inflation? Maybe. But it is highly unlikely that will be a steal or tough to replace at the same cost. So Oliver’s development is a pure bonus. If we get Furbush too, his development is a pure bonus as well. The next 2 1/2 years are lost as far as marginal importance of players goes. And psychologically I think it is better to be a bad team on a significant rise than a slightly less bad team that is hoping to rise to the ranks of .500 ball.
by auclairkeithbc on Jul 1, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Wade will get screwed in any deal
Just his nature…..best caet would be to wait till the last couple of days, but for some reason the way this season is going my gut tells me we get the raw end of any deal….
"now you chunkin' in there.."
From a Detroit point of view...
The closest you are going to get is trade number 2. But you haven’t taken into account Wandy’s age and his salary, something your trade value calculator doesn’t seem to calculate. He’s owed $27 million and 32-year-old pitchers are on the downside of their prime, which is usually 28. He’ll be 34 in the last year of his contract. To adjust for the age and salary, it would be fair from Detroit’s end if the trade was Oliver, Martinez and Weinhardt. As for those pressing Turner Forgetaboutit. Last Year, the Tigers turned down Toronto, who wanted Turner and Oliver in a package for Jose Baustista. I don’t see Turner going in a trade unless Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez are in return. Remember, the Miguel Cabrera trade where the Tigers traded their top 2 prospects at the time.
Keep in mind Wandy is a finesse lefty
They tend to age better into their mid-30s than for instance some power arm who relies on blowing hitters away with his stuff. But yeah, Turner isn’t going to happen.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
My bad, Orem. I was typing my post right as you posted yours, I guess. I don’t mean to sound redundant.
by Stupendous Man on Jun 30, 2011 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Keep in mind that Detroit signed a finesse lefty Nate Robertson for several years into his early 30s, only gave righty Brad Penny a 1-year deal this year, and there is that Dontrelle Willis deal. Tiger GM Dave Dombrowski has been snake-bitten on the Robertson and Willis deals, not to mention on the deal they gave righty Jeremy Bonderman. I see the years and the money as a drawback for Dombrowski. If Rodriguez is too expensive, I see Dombrowski taking a flier on Rich Harden, who’s coming off the DL for the A’s and if he shows he has something then he’ll be cheaper with a lot more up side. Rodriguez also goes against Domrowski’s pitching preferences, young power arms, remember didn’t like Jair Jurjens and traded him because he is a finesse pitcher.
Wandy is 32, but he didn’t start pitching professionally until he was 22, and didn’t make his big league debut until he was 26. Point being, he has much less mileage on his arm than your typical 32 year old pitcher. And as a finesse lefty, its not unreasonable to think that he has a few above average seasons left in the tank.
As for Wandy’s salary, $27 mil over the next two years certainly isn’t thump change, but its arguably less than he would be in line to get had he reached free agency after this season. It could very well be below market value.
I can’t see the Tigers matching up on a trade for Wandy, though. You guys’ farm system isn’t much better than ours, and I can’t see the Tigers parting with Turner or Oliver.
by Stupendous Man on Jun 30, 2011 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand that yall dont want to give up your best prospect.
I dont think we should look to a steal from any team, but I dont think we should get the shaft either. We should all remember trades should be good for both teams. If Andy Oliver can be a SP(I really know nothing about him), and not just a BP guy then thats definitely a reasonable trade.
by YohannDookeyblue on Jul 1, 2011 1:16 AM CDT up reply actions
A number of good comments posted on the subject, interesting discussion.
From the Astros point of view, any trade would require Turner to be involved. The other possibilities just do not look enticing. From the Tigers point of view, there is no way Turner is involved. They see the other possibilities as reasonable. Rightfully from their point of view, , they will try to downplay Wandy’s value, and upplay the other offers. I suspect, to some degree, both are correct, and therefore no trade is made. Detroit will look for another deal that does not involve Turner, and the Astros will try to find another suitor – I think there will be quite a few of them.
However, there are a couple of points I would like to bring up:
1. Almost all trades at this time of year are made based on perceived need. Even though there are a number of people advocating the immediate trading of Wandy, because his trade value is high, in reality, the Astros have no need to make a trade. Currently, time is there friend. The Tigers, on the other hand, are in the thick of a pennant race. They have to win their division (they will probably not get in as a wild card). This significantly increases their need, unless they pull away in the next month. If the trading deadline is fast approaching, and Cleveland/Chicago/Minnesota is nipping at their heals, maybe they feel that is the best move available since Wandy is supposed to be the best pitcher available. It has happened numerous times.
2. The thought of prospects keep us going when times are rough, but we seem to forget that they have a significant bust rate. Historically, about 50% of the Top 100 prospects never see the majors. Of those that do, about 50% are utility/replacement type career players. That means that statistically, 1 out of 4 will have a career equal or better than Wandy/Pence (good, but not elite). While the ratio improves to about 1 out of 2 if you limit the discussion to the top 25 prospects. So if I am a GM and am presented an offer of Turner for Wandy or Lyles for Pence, I take Pence and Wandy in a heartbeat. 50% of the time I will be an absolute goat (trading Joe Morgan), but 50% of the time I will be considered the greatest GM in history (trading Larry Anderson).
The odds aren't great for prospects having success in the majors
But what are the odds Wandy is still good the next 5 years? With Crane coming in and paying all this money just to buy the team, I doubt he’s going to spend lots of money on free agency to bolster a contending team within the next 3 years. 5 years seems reasonable enough to me. With that said, we are really scratching concrete with fingernails when talking about starting pitching prospects in our system. We could have great pitching prospects emerge within the next 5 years, but with the current state of the farm system, if we want to make the playoffs in a reasonable time frame, we need pitching, pitching, pitching. Wandy isn’t a must-trade item, but if we can get a lot of talent in return from a desperate team than one would usually think, then do it. Wandy will probably never be better than he is now in his career and we probably won’t get more prospects if we trade him in later years.
J.A. Happ has a better homerun ratio than Carlos Lee... Say What?
by BustaPozee on Jun 30, 2011 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely agree
I am not advocating keeping Wandy. If the right deal comes along, pull the trigger.
I have been saying this on these boards for a while now.
Especially about a Dom Brown for Pence swap. Everyone shoots it down immediately, but it could definitely happen. Pence is a proven commodity, Brown hasn’t proven sh**. I’m not even sure I want to trade Pence, just making a point.
by YohannDookeyblue on Jul 1, 2011 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
You are forgetting the MAIN point
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
A 25% chance to be a good starting pitcher at very very low salary is better than a 80% chance to be a good pitcher (Wandy) at a high salary. We can replace Wandy fairly easily through free agency. So give me the 25% chance cheap over the expensive, replaceable 80% chance. But it gets even better! Honestly if we traded Wandy away, I wouldn’t even want the Astros to sign another Wandy type. I’d rather that money not be spent quite yet, or spent on IFA or some other way to help us long term. Simply holding onto the money we would have used to pay Wandy (assuming that money would be used on the team in some way) is a better use of the money than actually spending it on Wandy or a Wandy type. He is a good player, not a special player that we need to hold onto.
by auclairkeithbc on Jul 1, 2011 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
It does seem that we disagree on most everything, that's okay.
I did not forget the money, that does play into the scenario, but I still contend that winning is the reason most trades are made. In addition, I would guess (I have no data) that winning teams bring in more money than losing teams. If I am correct, then acquiring a proven performer increases the team’s money. But I could be wrong.
If you are correct, then why did the Astros make the Johnson trade, or the Beltran trade, and why did the Red Sox make the Bagwell trade. These are just off the top of my head.
Lastly, I am curious on your view of Wandy. I get the impression that you see him as a back end starter. Is this correct? Who would you replace him with from this year’s class of free agents, or next year’s class, and what would spend on them (I do get that you would not replace him – I am just interested in your perspective, since we seem to differ greatly).
One thing we do seem to agree on is the need to spend more money in the international market.
he is much more than a back-end starter
he maybe what i’d call a #3 starter, which means he’s good enough to be a #3 playoff starter, and he’d be a very nice #4 playoff starter. he is in the top half of major league starters without much question, and on a bad team he’d obviously be higher up in the rotation. i’d say mark buerhle and ryan dempster are pretty similar quality pitchers that are free agents after this season. certainly sabathia, carpenter, and if healthy, wainwright would have to be considered much more desirable. i think c.j. wilson is a notch below those 3, but also pretty clearly above wandy (also 2 years younger). i’d rather have kuroda for the short term future, but he is almost 4 years older than wandy, so he’s sort of comparable because of that i suppose. i’d prefer wandy to harang, though harang would be a reasonable replacement. the highest paid of this group of comparables are making roughly what wandy makes, and i’d expect that to continue going forward.
by auclairkeithbc on Jul 1, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Just an interesting side note:
As I was looking some things up, I looked at the top 25 prospects for 2005 from Baseball America. Two names stood out – Jose Capellan and Brian Dopirak. I guess Ed Wade was looking for diamonds in the rough anywhere he could find them.
Odds might not be great, but the Tigers have most prospects brought up to MLB from the last 5 drafts
Granted many prospects never make it to the Show and there are many Major League teams whose minor league players are ranked better. However, did you know from 2005 to 2010, the Tigers have put more of their players into the Major Leagues? Check out this excerpt from the June 6, 2011 column by Lynn Henning of The Detroit News:
“No team has matched the 22 players the Tigers have pushed to the majors from those drafts of 2005-10.
The Tigers are tied with St. Louis for the greatest number of drafted position players to reach the big stage: 12 (Cameron Maybin, Jeff Larish, Clete Thomas, Matt Joyce, Casper Wells, Andy Dirks, Michael Hollimon, Will Rhymes, Brennan Boesch, Scott Sizemore, Danny Worth, and Alex Avila.
Ten pitchers from those five drafts have also made it (Arizona leads with 13): Rick Porcello, Ryan Perry, Andy Oliver, Charlie Furbush, Adam Wilk, Burke Badenhop, Anthony Claggett, Andrew Miller, Casey Fien, and Robbie Weinhardt.”
http://detnews.com/article/20110606/SPORTS0104/106060354/Tigers-have-to-focus-on-later-round-picks#ixzz1Qp8eYUWR
And that doesn’t include Justin Verlander and Jair Jurrgens, who were drafted before 2005.
All of them might not be All Stars but many of Detroit’s higher draft picks see time in the majors. Oliver is slated in the future as a No.2 starter not even 2 seasons into professional ball. He has had 2 call-ups, last year and this year and is about a season away from staying in the majors. He should be a keeper. Judging him on his numbers he has now in AAA is a little premature since he has less than 2 years in pro ball.
As for The Tigers’ rotation, Furbush has just been made a starter and Phil Coke returned to the pen. Detroit fans have been crying this switch for a month. The Tigers will use him for at least a month and if he falls flat on his face they will probably bring up Turner. My guess and hope as a Tiger fan has Furbush doing much better than Coke, plus Coke strengthens the pen since he is a very good relief pitcher.
So I don’t think there will be that Detroit trade for Wandy at trade deadline, unless something drastic happens. If they truly need a pitcher, I just got a feeling they will look to Harden because they are intent on keeping Turner. As I said earlier Reyes or H. Ramirez better come in return. Another thing, the Tigers don’t want hear any John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander comparisons for the next 20 years. The trade with Turner included will have to be some big name like with the Miguel Cabrera trade a few years ago.
But the Tigers could look to Keppinger, though, and of course not for Turner…;-).
If Turner is involved
Pence AND Wandy better be involved

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