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How Does Jordan Lyles Minor League Stats Compare?

 

On the surface this may look like yet another plea to keep top prospect Jordan Lyles in Oklahoma City longer to fully develop, but that has already been done several times over and is not what I set out to do. Instead, I am simply trying to see how Lyles’ minor league stats stack up to other top pitching prospects whose names we do know, and have experienced some success at the major league level. I chose ten other high school drafted pitcher’s that were at one time or another considered an elite prospect for their respective clubs to compare minor league statistics and see where Jordan Lyles place is amongst the pack.

 

The chart below shows minor league statistic averages for the ten pitchers selected before their first trip to the major leagues. All minor league stats listed were gathered from baseball reference's website.

 

 

 

Minor League Career Stats

 

 

 

Pitcher

GS

ERA

K/9

BB/9

H/9

HR/9

IP

Jeremy Hellickson

103

2.71

9.8

2.1

7.4

0.7

580.1

Jon Lester

98

       3.33

8.3

3.8

8

0.6

483.2

Roy Halladay

85

3.98

6.42

3.2

8.8

0.78

493.2

Roy Oswalt

82

2.92

9.73

2.25

8.01

0.56

523.2

Tommy Hanson

69

2.52

10.7

3.1

6.3

0.7

389

Josh Johnson

68

2.89

7.1

3

7.78

0.28

351.1

Madison Bumgarner

62

2.00

8

1.9

7.6

0.4

355.2

CC Sabathia

48

3.31

11.5

4.37

7

0.5

232.2

Dwight Gooden

38

3.04

11.87

3.6

6.87

0.67

269.2

Josh Beckett

37

1.72

11.8

2.23

5.76

0.53

199.1

Total Average

69

2.84

9.52

2.96

7.35

0.57

390

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jordan Lyles

75

3.59

9.1

2.6

9.2

0.6

404

 

Star-divide

 

Out of these ten pitchers the average amount of games started in the minors was 69, and the average amount of innings pitched in the minors was 390. Only three of the ten threw less than 300 innings and of those three only Josh Beckett threw under 200 innings. The three pitchers that threw under 300 innings, Gooden, Sabathia, and Beckett all had the highest K/9 ratio, which was over 11 for all three pitchers. This probably would have leveled off if these three had pitched more innings at the higher levels of the minors. Of the three nobody pitched at a level higher than Double-A, and none of the three pitched a complete season of Double-A ball. Dwight Gooden made the jump from A-ball to the majors. Out of the pitchers that threw over 300 innings, Tommy Hanson had the highest K/9 ratio of 10.7, followed by Jeremy Hellickson at 9.8, and Roy Oswalt at 9.73. What I found most surprising is that out of the ten pitchers sampled Roy Halladay had the lowest K/9 ratio at 6.42, and he also had the highest ERA of the group at 3.98.

 

How does Jordan Lyles measure up to this group?

 

GS

ERA

K/9

BB/9

H/9

HR/9

IP

5th

10th

7th

5th

11th

T-6th

5th

 

Lyles is in the middle of the pack in both games started and innings pitched. His K/9 ratio is 7th, ahead of Roy Halladay, Josh Johnson, Madison Bumgarner, and Jon Lester. He is also in the middle of the pack in both BB/9 (5th), and HR/9 (tied for 6th). On the downside Lyles is 10th in ERA, just finishing ahead of Roy Halladay. Lyles also finishes dead last in hits allowed per 9 innings, and allows almost 2 more hits per 9 innings than the average of this group.

 

How long is long enough?

 

Out of this group Lyles falls right in the middle of minor league innings pitched and has had success, which leads us to the question how long until Lyles makes his major league debut. To help answer this I decided to compare where Lyles sits at the highest level of minor league ball to the rest. Josh Johnson, Dwight Gooden, CC Sabathia, and Josh Beckett never pitched at the Triple-A level and therefore were not included in this chart.

 

Pitcher

GS

ERA

K/9

BB/9

H/9

HR/9

IP

Jeremy Hellickson

30

2.47

9.9

2.6

6.9

0.5

175

Madison Bumgarner

14

3.16

6.4

2.4

9.6

0.5

82.2

Roy Oswalt

6

4.24

9.5

1.6

9.3

1.1

34

Tommy Hanson

11

1.49

12.2

2.3

5.4

0.7

66.1

Jon Lester

25

3.42

7.1

4.3

8.4

0.7

118.1

Roy Halladay

56

4.45

5.1

3.5

9.2

1

329.2

Jordan Lyles

14

4.56

6.7

2.9

11.1

0.6

77

Lyles Ranking

T-4th

7th

5th

5th

7th

3rd

5th

 

At the Triple-A level Lyles ranks last in ERA and H/9, and is in the bottom 3 in K/9 and BB/9. Considering the company, Lyles has not performed terrible at the Triple-A level, but with more time he could probably get back to the level of success that he experienced at the lower levels of the system.

 

How did success in the minors translate into success in the majors for these pitchers?

 

The last question that I will look at is how long it took these pitchers to be successful at the major league level after experiencing a good amount of success in the minors. Besides Madison Bumgarner and Jeremy Hellickson who are experiencing success but have less than 1 year of service time, all of these pitchers experienced success in the majors relatively fast. After parts of 2 seasons in the majors in 2006 and 2007, Jon Lester put everything together in 2008 and posted a WAR value of 5.1. Josh Beckett was limited with injury issues in the early going, but experienced success when he was healthy. In his first three years in the majors his K/9 ratio never dropped below 9, and averaged an ERA of 3.50. Similar to Beckett, Josh Johnson also had his share of injury troubles, and only pitched more than 150 innings once in his first 4 seasons before remaining healthy and posting a 5.6 WAR in 2009. Both Roy Oswalt and CC Sabathia hit the ground running and posted a WAR above 4 in their first full season. Tommy Hanson experienced success in a partial season in 2009, and also posted a WAR above 4 in his first full season in 2010. Of the pitchers mentioned, Roy Halladay struggled the most, and took 4 seasons before he posted a WAR above 4. Dwight Gooden was in a category all by himself and posted a WAR of 8.6 in his first season in the majors.

 

Jordan Lyles may not have as much success as any of these pitchers on this list in the majors, but his minor league numbers are at least comparable to them. While Jordan Lyles is projected to be a number 2 or 3 starter by most, it is good to see that he stacks up decent when compared to some of the other elite pitchers that were drafted out of high school. I would love to see the Astros take an approach that is similar to the approach the Rays took with Jeremy Hellickson, and allow him to fully develop in the minors before bringing him up. After all, Lyles is only expected to get better with time, and he is already starting to show signs of adjusting at the Triple-A level.


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You mention that Roy Halliday had the worst stats in the minors and AAA, and it’s also worth noting that Halliday had a relatively rocky beginning to his career. He was sent back to the minors in 2000 (his ML ERA was 10.64 that season). He was sent all the way back to A ball in 2001 and had to work his way back through AA and AAA, before finally returning to the majors. I think he had some arm injury problems during that period. In any event, Halliday is famously known for overcoming a less than stellar beginning to his major league career.

by clack on May 19, 2011 8:12 AM CDT reply actions  

I was wondering if he was dealing with injury issues during that time period. I was just surprised to see that he didn’t strikeout a whole lot of people in the minors, because he turned into a big strikeout pitcher in the majors.

I guess he surprised everyone turning into what he turned into.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 10:28 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

One thing that should be mentioned when it comes to Halliday's rebound to becoming

the pitcher he is today is the Astros’ pitching Brad Arnsberg. Doc has stated before that it was Arnsberg who realy helped become a pitcher and just not a thrower. If the team gives Arnsberg some young talent and a little time and see if he can do it again.
Im not worried about Lyles at all right now. When you consider his age and where he’s playing at level wise, he’s most likely only going to improve with time and the experience that comes with it.

by StrosSouth on May 19, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Arnsberg effect.

Arnsberg should definitely like working with Lyles who throws four pitches and also is a pitcher and not just a thrower already. Brett Myers has stated that Arnsberg has a detailed plan every outing, and with Lyles he will have a lot to work with already. Lyles development will definitely be fun to watch.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 11:41 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I actually view those stats as quite encouraging for Lyle’s future. There’s certainly more of a case to keep him in AAA until at least September, but at this point I still see him as a quality #2 starter once he gets established in the bigs.

by Snake Diggity on May 19, 2011 10:21 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree. His minor league numbers compared nicely to most of those guys. I forgot to add it in there, but he’s also younger then most of those other guys listed when pitching at the triple-a level.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 10:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Maybe the ’stros can flip Wandy and Myers for a young stud or two. A rotation next year of Lyles, Norris, Happ, Aneury, and one other young buck could be a great foundation to start from.

by Snake Diggity on May 19, 2011 3:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Seems like the Yankees could always use starting pitching. Red six are thin also. Hopefully the white sox climb back into contention to keep there pitching off the market. Also hope the braves don’t put Lowe on the market and crowd things up.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 4:49 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

It’s possible that the Cubs will be putting some starting pitchers on the market if the Cubbies are out of the running by mid-season…which looks very likely at this point.

by clack on May 19, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn’t think about the Cubs. They have some decent arms also.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 6:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

That would be one of the younger rotations the Astros have had in a long time.

I would love for that young buck to be Manny Banuelos, but I doubt the yankees trade him.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Everything I’ve heard about the new ownership group (philosophy, plans, etc…) points to them taking a “from the ground up” approach. Which means we’ve probably got another 2-3 seasons (at best) of being bad… So, why do we need to have pricey pitchers in the rotation? Why do we need outfielders that are reaching their prime years for a bad team? In all likelihood, those guys won’t be any good when it’s time for the Astros to compete again, so dump contracts and get young talent…but don’t do it until the new regime comes in and either Wade is gone or he’s got more statisticians around him.

by mwilly33 on May 19, 2011 4:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I think the new ownership group will also be desperate to keep revenues from plummeting. It’s a tricky situation. I don’t think they can put a product on the field which projects to lose 100 games every year. The revenues would drop and inhibit the team’s ability to accomplish any objectives. What I’m saying is that I think that some core pitching may be required to keep the on the field product decent enough to draw attendance and allow the new regional sports network to get decent ratings and negotiate cable distribution agreements.

by clack on May 19, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe they could improve upon that core though. Trading both Wandy and Brett might not be feasible, but by only trading away one of them you would still have a pretty decent core. Add Lyles to that core and it could still be respectable, and maybe as decent as this years group.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 6:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think Bourn and Pence are also worth trading if we are gonna go from the ground up. Especially Pence could bring in a better return than Myers. He could prob get us at least one young top 50 prospect.

by Texansfan1989 on May 19, 2011 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trading Bourn might not be a good idea because:
1.) Who do we have to replace him. We need a decent defensive centerfielder to roam MMP, and we do not currently have any of those in our system.

2.) Bourn is probably more valuable to us than what he would be on the trade market. His bat is a tad below average and he hits for no power. He’s a base stealing threat but has been struggling to get on base.

Trading Pence would probably bring back the most in return, and we do have guys that could play passable defense in right with a so-so bat. However he is a fan favorite, and the last thing new ownership would want to do is upset an already depressed fan base.

by conroestro on May 19, 2011 10:56 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

l agree with your points.

by clack on May 19, 2011 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think that Jason B. could be a good replacement for a year or two in CF

if Bourn does get traded. If Bourn keeps up the gold glove defense and picks up his BA a bit why not sell high on a guy you are gonna lose after next season anyway.

by StrosSouth on May 20, 2011 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bourgeois could probably be a decent replacement if Bourn were dealt, but I would still have my doubts. There’s a reason why he has never been considered a full-time starter. He may have tricked alot of us into thinking we have something special there with the level he was playing at before he was injured, but was more than likely riding a hot streak and playing above his head.

Over the course of a season I doubt that he would perform as good as Michael Bourn. Hes definitely a decent backup, but I’m not for sure if he would be the best answer as far as a Michael Bourn replacement. However, opinions on him vary, and I know a lot of people here are higher on him than I am.

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 12:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Im not saying he would be a gold glover like Bourn but could be a

decent replacement for a year or two until our younger CF’s have developed and are ready for the big time. Offensively though he might be a bit better than Bourn.

by StrosSouth on May 20, 2011 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

True, he could probably help bridge the gap, but it looms like a pretty big gap to bridge. Maybe Jay Austin or Austin Wages could be viewed as the centerfielder of the future, but they have a long way to go and each has their flaws. There’s not really a long term answer to center higher than A-ball. TJ Steele is the closest one that would fall under this category, and we definitely know what his story is.

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 1:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Typos in previous post: looms is supposed to be looks, and wages was suposed to be Wates. Sorry

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 1:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

and that’s based on what?

Follow my ramblings on Twitter .

by Timothy De Block on May 20, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bourn is guy with many talents that lacks luster

Before Bourgeouis got hurt he had more stolen bases than Bourn while only starting 3 games. Only thing Bourn is aggressive on is that sweeping curvball he cant hit. The guy lacks charisma and if someone wants him I say bye bye Bourn he is not that great of a lead off guy.

by Nado2036 on May 20, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Bourn plays the game hard, he is just a smarter basesrealer. Bourgeois seemed a little wreckless on the bases, but it was working out for him.

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 3:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

You dont hear anyone saying we got to keep this guy do we???

by Nado2036 on May 20, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with the points made by conroestro. CFer is a defense-heavy position, and MMP is one of the most difficult CFs to cover. I don’t know of any player in baseball who can do it better than Bourn. Bourgeois is inferior to Bourn as a defender in CF. If you want to have young pitchers like Lyles succeed when they get to the majors, then you need to maintain top qualify defense in CF.

by clack on May 20, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not if it costs you 3 years down the road

Either you are going to REBUILD or your are not which way do you want it?

by Nado2036 on May 20, 2011 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Astros

Can have a decent payroll, so they don’t necessarily need to blow everything up to rebuild. If they dude we could see a Pirate type of cycle of trading every decent player that comes through the system.

Follow my ramblings on Twitter .

by Timothy De Block on May 20, 2011 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bourn has hit his Ceiling I believe. He is good but not a guy that is so good you cant move him.

by Nado2036 on May 20, 2011 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

True, he’s not so good that you can’t move him, but I would like somebody equally as good to replace him so our defense don’t suffer.

Like Clack said, a young pitcher like Lyles could definitely benefit from having a good defense behind him. Bourn is solid and could help alleviate some of the pressure from a young pitcher.

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 11:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

If we can’t properly develop our young pitchers with defense behind them, then it may cost the Astros a lot more than 3 years. I am glad that the new owner said that the Astros would be about pitching and defense.

by clack on May 20, 2011 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well said. I know that this isn’t the most popular viewpoint, but after watching Barmes play short this year, my feelings wouldn’t be hurt if they re-signed him after the season to a year contract or two to help bridge the gap until our young shortstops are ready.

Shortstop is one of the positions that will probably have to be filled via free agency this offseason, and it will be interesting to see what path new ownership will take. Obviously a defense and offense guy would be great, I’ve heard Jose Reyes’ name mentioned here quite a few times, and he would be my first choice. However if you were unable to get a guy like him for the right price then my feelings would not be hurt if they re-signed Barmes. The defense up the middle would be solid. Keep a solid defense in the middle and get the offense somewhere else.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 12:28 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

How do we know he is inferior defensively

in comparison to Bourn? I mean Jason only gets the opportunity to play in LF every once in blue frickin moon. I say let him play consistently then make your judgement on him.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have watched Bourgeois play defense in CF on several occasions, including at Round Rock. That’s just my opinion. He has good speed, but his instincts, routes, and first step aren’t as good as Bourn’s. He wouldn’t be a career AAA player at 28 if he was as good as Bourn.

by clack on May 21, 2011 7:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately while he was in Milwaukie

he was never given a real chance to earn job. Besides if give the guy more playing time in one position and let him play im sure his defense will improve. We all know Jason isn’t the long term solution. That solution should and hopefully is in the minors right now.
My point is trade high on Bourn now (pretty sure he gets third straight GG this season) and get as many quality minor league players in return to replenish our nearly depleted and limited in talent farm system. We are playing for the future not playing for today.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's 28

He could be around when the Astros are starting to compete again. There’s no sure fire replacement for Bourn in the minors. The Astros would get more out of keeping him than trading him.

Do we really want to go back to the days when guys like Berkman and Biggio were used in centerfield.

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by Timothy De Block on May 21, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

And look what happened to the

team when grocery boy waited too long to trade Oswalt and Berkman. Instead of selling high on them and getting even better talent in return they got some decent players for system filler other than Wallace who they had to flip one those so-so minor leaguers they got in return for Oswalt to acquire.
It’s just like playing the stock market to sell high and get more in return. If you wait too long like in the Oswalt/Berkman issue you dont get much value in your return.
Besides this team/franchise is in a rebuilding process. If this team is gonna struggle this season and next before our young talent reaches the show then so be it. Get the best talent you can for a guy who is gonna leave the franchise after next season.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

What do you think Bourn could net you on the trade market. He may be able to net a respectable package, but I doubt that it would be enough to justify trading him. Unfortunately for guys like Bourn, everybody tends to focus heavy on offense, and the solid defense guys don’t get as much attention. That’s why Pence probably carries alot more trade value than Bourn, and also why public opinion is typically opposed to trading Pence.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 1:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

i love hunter and michael but if it nets this ailing

franchise some blue chip prospects then trade them both.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough. If it could net them something like that in return then that would be good, but I have my doubts about the package that Bourn would net.

Maybe I will go back and look up simialr trades, Juan Pierre immediately comes to mind, and see what they got in return.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

You’re making a lot of assumptions on what the Astros got. Jonathan Villar was is rated as a top 100 prospect by BA. Melancon has become the closer and the others are doing relatively well in the minors.

You’re also making an assumption that Bourn will leave after next season, probably solely on the fact that he got a good agent in Boras. Even if he does he could be rated as a type A or B free agent, meaning there could be draft picks involved.

Plus you still have no viable option for a replacement of Bourn. Bourgeois is on the DL and could be for a while and there’s no certainty that he’ll resume hitting like he was before he went on the DL. In fact it’s more likely that he won’t hit as well considering he was hitting well above his head.

Follow my ramblings on Twitter .

by Timothy De Block on May 21, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

And you're assuming that Bourgeois

can’t handle playing CF. If you put Bogey or JD in LF and decide to keep Pence then your OF is full of speed that can help Jason if he is your CFer. I am not saying in any way that Jason is better than Michael. Im just saying either way they are both in the latter part of their 20’s and are not the long term answer. Im just saying sell high on Bourn. NL leader in stolen bases again and soon to be 3 time GG winner who with better talent hitting behind him on another team will probably hit for a slightly higher BA than what has playing here.
Im not assuming anything on what we got in return for Oswalt or Berkman. My point was that grocery boy waited too damn long before trading them knowing this team was on its last leg. Had they traded them the prior season or before when they still producing at a high level (Berkman) and higher win totals (Oswalt-cant fault him for piss poor D behind him though) we could have gotten in return some true blue chip prospects such as Wallace.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

With the Oswalt comment you said that you can’t fault him for pies poor D.

I would hate to be saying that when the young Jordan Lyles makes his debut.

Keep Bourn until a viable replacement presents itself.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Meant to say piss poor defense.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

The team is going to struggle anyway with

Lyles starting as he goes through his
growing pains in the bigs.
why keep Bourn? His offense is as poor as defense is great. Besides by the time this team is truly competitive again he’ll be on the wrong side of 30. As he ages his speed will begin to decrease. Also this franchise has won games without someone like Bourn patroling CF before. We are building for the future not to win today or tomorrow.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

One thing that I was surprised about when researching for this post is that not every young pitcher struggles or goes through growing pains when they come up, we are just used to it happening to Wandy and Norris. Some guys hit the ground running. I think Lyles could be a guy that hits the ground running if the Astros give him enough time in the minors to fully develop. Also he could hit the ground running if we put the best product defensively on the field behind him.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Personally I hope they just leave him

in AAA this year. He’s only 20 and this team is going nowhere fast so no need to rush him. Just let him continue to mature and work on his craft in AAA.
Its true that some young pitchers hit the ground running but most of those are probably power pitchers unlike Lyles.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Also the spectaclular play in baseball is over rated. You need guys in the field that make the plays that they are supposed to make consistently. With some work in the outfield I am sure that Bougeious and whomever else is in AAA can be a stop gap until we find someone else.

by Nado2036 on May 21, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

We had winning seasons with guys not named born in cf. Its a luxury. I see no way that u can’t find a good return for a 2 time gold Glover and a top of the line base Stealer. 2 things that in 3 years won’t be as good cause after 30 the speed will fall some. He is prob at his highest now. Trade him if u can

by Texansfan1989 on May 21, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that a gold glove centerfielder is a luxury for most teams, but you could almost make the argument that its a necessity for minute maid park. Espicially if your staff is made up of pitch to contact guys (Myers, Happ, and Aneury). Some of those also have high flyball rates (Happ, Norris, and Aneury.) Without very many extreme power pitchers, I say right now that is a luxury we can’t do without.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Look this team is horrible everywhere

and is building for long term. Seems like everyone’s mind set is to win now which is the reason this franchise is in the situation it’s in right now. By the time this team should begin being playoff caliber Bourn will be on the decline (over age 30) which is only 2-3 years from now in all reality. So why keep him if you can net some much younger talent now that will be ready when this franchise is beginning to truly compete again.
Besides Michael knows that he can command more money when is contract up after next season and will most likely leave for a contender anyway. Yes the franchise would most likely get a compensatory draft pick but why settle for just one player in return when you can possibly get 2-3 players in return for him.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see your point, and im definitely not of the win now mindset. Rebuilding is in order, but like Tummy said above, we don’t want to turn this rebuild into a Pirates type of rebuild project that has been rebuilding for a long time. The Astros have to rebuild wisely which means holding onto some core players.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Tummy is Timmy maybe one day I will learn how to proofread.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:48 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I wouldn't see this going the

direction of the Pirates though. Wade built a winner in Philly but didn’t get to see the fruits of his labor really until after he was gone. The Pirates franchise has been a giant cluster F**k for nearly two decades. Pretty much since they let Bond,Bonilla, and King go or traded them away whichever the case may be. All this says to me that Pitt has either bad management or very cheap owners.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Loosing bourn in a trade isn’t a Pitt type trade. I’m fine with 2 years like this to start stocking up the minors ESP if that means a fire sale.

by Texansfan1989 on May 21, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Same here. Get what you can for

a proven commodity before its too late.

by StrosSouth on May 21, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bourn will maintain what his number's but they wont get better

Michael Bourn’s might maintain his numbers here for the next 3 maybe 4 years but they are not going to get bettter. Same with Pence his number are good but with the Astros and no one to protect him his numbers wont get better. Sale while you can or next year you might have the same thing that is going on with Myers

by Nado2036 on May 21, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Myers is deff a good example. It sucks that last year he was worth so much and this year we would b lucky to get anything worth it.

by Texansfan1989 on May 21, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we had some guys coming up that really had some pop I would say keep them but we dont so time to part ways

by Nado2036 on May 21, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part ways with everybody huh.

Pittsburgh here we come.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 6:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

We have practically been that already. Our only chance to not have the super long losing season streak is get as many prospects as possible through the draft and trades.

by Texansfan1989 on May 21, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

WTF

The Pirates are what 4 or 5 games up on us what do you mean???? Get two stellar pitching prospects and one power bat and get rid of Bourn Pence and Myers. Pence and Bourn are not perrenial All Stars. You act like I want to get rid of Drew Stubbs or Andrew Jones in his prime. WTF

by Nado2036 on May 21, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I realize exactly what your saying

I understand everything that y’all have been saying, and even agree with most of it. I would love to see blue chip prospects brought into the system, and enjoy seeing the young guys get their shot.

My biggest concern with trading Bourn is two-fold. One, Im not for sure if you could get fair value for him. Pence sure, teams will be interested and he would net a big return. Bourn on the other hand is iffy. Maybe the trade deadline comes and there is a lot of interest in Bourn and he could net a top prospect. If so then maybe it would be a good idea to pull the trigger. My second concern is the immediate backup option for center. Defense is important, especially with a pitching staff that profiles like ours. Bourgeois could probably play adequate defense I believe. Offensively though I think our perception of him is extremely high right now because of what he did in an extremely small sample size. Over the course of a season it would not surprise me if he hit .250. You can argue that if we are not contending anyways then what is the point. A few years of Bourgeois to serve as a placeholder until a better option presents itself isnot that bad. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, only time will tell.

Blowing up the team and dealing everybody is an option, and also may be the better option, we may never know.

by conroestro on May 22, 2011 2:29 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I would say that the guys with real trade value right now would be Wandy, and Pence.

For Myers, Hall, Barmes, and Bourn, they would all need to go on a big hotstreak to net anything worthwhile. If they don’t then maybe try to get as much as possible for Barmes and Hall and cut your losses. Defensively there are decent replacements for Hall, but Barmes would be missed. If Bourn doesn’t raise his value then I say keep him for the defense as he is more valuable to use then others.

This is not a win now mentality, but rather trying to get fair value for our proven players, and not just making a move for the sake of making a move.

This trade talk is a hot topic I guess.

by conroestro on May 22, 2011 2:40 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

agreed mostly

Wandy and Pence deff have the most trade value. No chance in anyone having an argument about that. Bourn has at least a top 25 to 50 prospect if he can show up until the deadline he can get on base more and keep playing steller D and keep stealing bases when he does get on.

Myers im hoping can get a good string of starts in and the last day of the deadline has some worth, at least enough to get a prospect with potitial. Maybe a very raw player.

After that there is very little value on the team but i think Hall can build up to a lil value due to the fact that he has shown power in the past and can play all over the feild and barmes is a great defender( not worth alot without a bat i know) but yea, there are deff at least 3 to 4 top 50 or 100 prospects we could grab from trading these guys in one way or form. not only that but that is 3 or 4 guys that are better than anyone after our top 2 or 3 guys in the organization already. That with our 11th pick could seriously help us boost our minors and maybe even get us a year closer to being respectable again.

by Texansfan1989 on May 22, 2011 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

That make sense

My thing is that if you can get something for Bourn that can be worth while go ahead and do it. I am not saying trade the guy for junk.

by Nado2036 on May 23, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

AGreed

IF we arnt getting value no reason to trade him. Worse comes to worse when we loose him in free agency we will get comp picks. Just wish we had more picks in this draft

by astrosfan1989 on May 23, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Correct

And that’s all that Im saying. If we can get fair value for him then great, but im not for sure if that will be the case. He would need to go on a tear. Even then hopefully they could find a solid defensive option in center to take his place.

by conroestro on May 23, 2011 10:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm replying...

just so I can see how narrow the reply formatting can get.

by clack on May 23, 2011 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I noticed my sentences were starting to look like paragraphs.

by conroestro on May 23, 2011 5:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Jordan Lyles

One thing I didn’t realize is how quickly some of the other pitchers that were on this list were rushed through their respective systems. I always thought that Jordan Lyles was on the fast track through the system, but several of these high school guys were rushed through quicker than he was.

by conroestro on May 20, 2011 10:01 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Jordan Lyles Part 2

7.2 innings pitched, 1 earned run, 6 hits, 1 walk, and 5 strikeouts. Not a bad night for him at all.

by conroestro on May 21, 2011 2:33 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

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