Is Theriot Really On the Astros' Radar?
NBC Sports Hardball Talk discussed a Jon Heyman rumor that the Astros would have interest in the Cardinals' infielder Ryan Theriot if he is non-tendered. With the signing of Rafael Furcal, Theriot's future with the Cardinals is questionable. Since similar rumors appeared a few weeks ago, this report doesn't appear to be linked to the new GM's past history as a Cardinals' executive.
I am skeptical that the Astros are really that interested in Theriot. Unless Theriot will come at a bargain basement price, this wouldn't be an overly appealing move for the Astros. I can see the possibility that the Astros will sign a lower rung veteran shortstop. But Theriot is a similar player to Angel Sanchez, another veteran middle infielder on the team. Theriot is a better player than Sanchez, but probably not by a wide margin. Yes, Theriot might improve the team if he replaced Sanchez on the roster. But is the improvement significant enough to justify the difference in salary? Theriot was paid a little over $3 million last year, while Sanchez was paid $440,000. Sanchez is not yet arbitration eligible--but even if we assume that Sanchez would get a pay raise to $900,000 and Theriot accepted a pay cut to $2 million, Theriot increases team costs by $1.1 million. That doesn't seem like a lot, but if the Astros are in a severe cost cutting mode, increased costs will be under the microscope.
Based on the advanced defensive metrics Theriot and Sanchez appear to be similar players, which is to say that they both are below average at shortstop and above average at 2d base. Both players have little power. However, Theriot is somewhat of an improvement over Sanchez on offense. Theriot's offense won't set the world on fire, but he is likely to provide a better on base percentage than Sanchez. Bill James projections for Sanchez and Theriot are shown below.
(BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, wOBA, BB/K)
Theriot .278, .338, .334, .682, .304, 71%
Sanchez .256, .314, .317, .631, .296, 51%
Sanchez's on base skills are poor, and that is the main reason that Theriot looks to be better. In his younger days, Theriot was valuable because he provided decent defense at shortstop with a good OBP. In his later years, Theriot's ability to play shortstop defense has diminished with age, and his walk rates and OBP have declined. But he still appears to be a better offensive player than Sanchez.
DEFENSE
I averaged Theriot's last three years of UZR data. Because of Angel Sanchez's limited ML experience, I used the last two years of UZR data for him. To put their defensive runs saved on a consistent basis, I have used UZR/150 and assumed that the playing time will be split 70% shortstop and 30% second base. (As I noted, both players are much better at 2d base, therefore requiring identical playing time at the two positions is necessary for comparison purposes.) The resulting UZR/150 is -6.2 for Sanchez and -2.46 for Theriot. However because the year to year variance for each player is high, it's hard to label either player as clearly better on defense. Taking into account that Theriot has considerably more experience at shortstop, as well as my own unfortunate reaction to watching Sanchez play shortstop, my gut feeling is that Theriot would be slightly better at shortstop than Sanchez.
BASERUNNING
According to Fangraphs, Sanchez was +2.3 for baserunning and Theriot was -0.9 in 2011. For anyone who watches them, Theriot appears to have better foot speed than Sanchez. But Theriot's results were hurt by 6 caught stealing in 10 attempts last year. Earlier in his career, Theriot was one of the better base stealers in the NL. And, over his career, Theriot has been successful in over 70% of his steal attempts. I don't know how much of Theriot's deteriorating base stealing results are due to age vs. just a bad year. Because Sanchez is visibly slow, I am skeptical of giving him a base running advantage. I'll just call it a draw.
WAR
Sanchez had 0.5 WAR and Theriot has 0.7 WAR last season. If you reduce Theriot's WAR to account for the difference in plate appearances, Theriot's WAR exceeds Sanchez's WAR by only 0.01. However, the WAR comparison may be slightly biased against Theriot, because he played a greater percent of the time at shortstop relative to Sanchez. Overall, Theriot played a lot more for the Cardinals than Sanchez did for the Astros, but their WAR results confirms that they were roughly similar players last year.
So, what's your thoughts?
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Yeah,
Theriot doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense for the Astros, but I would rather have him instead of Sanchez.
I am curious to see what Marwin Gonzalez’s defense is really like since some people say its above average and some say its below average.
I wanted to see a defensive shortstop signing this year with the presumably younger pitching staff, and I don’t think Sanchez, Theriot, or MarGon are the answers.
by conroestro on Dec 11, 2011 6:17 PM CST via mobile reply actions
It worries me seeing Theriot in an Astros uniform...
esoecially after reading this, and seeing the money we could save by just using Gonzales or Sanchez.
I LOVE THE ASTROS. Now lets win something!
by ccislanders on Dec 11, 2011 6:52 PM CST via mobile reply actions
It doesn’t make sense for the Astros to spend any significant money on players that won’t be around in 2 years. We’re in rebuild mode and unless he’s going to give us a Gold Glove SS and help out our young pitchers, having him doesn’t really help the team. I like the low risk medium reward guys we’ve signed so far.
I’m goin into next season with the idea that the team isn’t going to the post season, and you all know my theory…If we’re not gonna win, that #1 draft pick looks like a nice pick me up.
by Its Gonna Happen on Dec 11, 2011 6:57 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I wonder how well Altuve could play SS
His defense was solid at second base from what I vaguely remember. But he hasn’t played SS professionally at all. He is a light-footed player which is why I think he could do well at the position.
If the Astros are really desperate for a SS, I have no doubt in my mind José Altuve could adapt to it. The big question is if he’d be any better than the other options we have.
Spring training is an experimental playground of sorts.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
This could give Matt Downs a chance to finally start full time at 2B.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
In a small sample, Altuve didn’t fare well on the advanced defensive metrics at 2d base last (-2.9 UZR/150; -2 DRS). That’s not a good sign for fielding at shortstop. I think Altuve can be an average to above average second baseman with more time at the position but shortstop probably stretches his ability. I also wonder if his arm fits shortstop.
Yeah, I think I would rather see Paredes at short over Altuve, and I really don’t want to see Paredes moved.
by conroestro on Dec 12, 2011 8:59 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Pass
Hope the new GM us sick of watching Theriot the way we are sick of watching Sanchez. I rather sign Adam Everett even if his range isn’t what it used to be. Or Jack Wilson…but my first choice is the rule 5 guy.
by ntn on Dec 11, 2011 8:38 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Signing Jack Wilson doesn’t sound like such a bad idea.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Dec 11, 2011 11:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think the difference between a 625 OPS and 650 OPS is worth $1M, especially on a team as offense-hungry as this one appears to be, and even moreso when considering Theriot’s value as a possible trade chip at the deadline.
My article doesn’t rule out that possibility. The Astros’ offense is so OBP-challenged that one could argue that improving the OBP from the shortstop position (e.g., replacing Sanchez with a higher OBP player) has a lot of value. My preference still would be a good defensive shortstop, like the Jack Wilson suggestion above. But both OBP and defense probably have a high marginal value to the Astros.
Of course I think Wilson for $750k would be smarter than Theriot for $2M; it’s all about value. Given Wilson profiles as a 625 guy but is plus defensively while Theriot is a 650 guy and average to below average defensively, Wilson is likely the better play. We’ll just have to wait and see what they each sign for.
by Snake Diggity on Dec 12, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Zack Grienke news
It seems like Grienke requesting a trade is pure speculation, but how bad of news would that be for the Brewers organization right now.
by conroestro on Dec 12, 2011 9:55 AM CST via mobile reply actions
That's pretty funny actually..
I LOVE THE ASTROS. Now lets win something!
by ccislanders on Dec 12, 2011 11:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Theriot
Always thought he was a decent player. Yes, he’s stretched at shortstop though. At worst, he’s a utility infielder. I guess it all depends if the price is right.
I’d be surprised if he gets a $2 million offer. Astros may be able to get him for less. At least Astros can offer Theriot a chance to get more playing time.
I'd be ok with this signing because Theriot is an LSU guy
The Astros are going to struggle regardless, so at least there will be another Tiger connection on the team.
Roll Tide, Roll.
That’s all I have to say.
Are you a corndog? Or just a fan?
I LOVE THE ASTROS. Now lets win something!
by ccislanders on Dec 12, 2011 11:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yea, im not big on Theriot
and i dont believe he will improve this team by much but if your in the front office i think you have to think about bringing in a few guys that people are familiar with in an attempt to spark interest. The casual fan is not gonna go to MMP to watch the likes of Marwin Gonzalez and Angel Sanchez. Sign a guy that people are somewhat familiar with on a cheap short-term deal with the hopes that people will be interested in them enough to come watch them play. I dont think this will jeopardize the future and might possibly increase revenue slightly.
Giants non-tendered Keppinger
Heck with Theriot. Astros should re-sign Kepp for a couple seasons until Villar is ready.
I like Kepp, but as a utility second and third baseman type. If he was the everyday shortstop I don’t think I would be that thrilled.
by conroestro on Dec 13, 2011 11:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Neither is Theriot. Or Sanchez. At least they shouldn’t be. If our choice is bad defense or bad defense, I’ll take bad defense with a .300 BA.
by CRPerry13 on Dec 13, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sanchez could pull a Betancourt and post a years worth of good defense. Both Theriot and Keppinger are going to be more expensive than Sanchez. At this point you go with the cheaper option. No sense in spending money on a very minimal upgrade.
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by Timothy De Block on Dec 13, 2011 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree. Keppinger could bring back another Stoffel/Sosa combo at the deadline; there’s almost no way Sanchez has any trade value, ever. You can capitalize on reputation (Keppinger as a versatile, non-strikeout, good clubhouse player), which makes spending the extra $ worthwhile.
by Snake Diggity on Dec 13, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt a non-tendered player is going to bring back much at the trade deadline. Keppinger is a year older and I doubt he brings back another Stoffel OR Sosa not that those are exciting players to begin with.
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by Timothy De Block on Dec 13, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
I think you have to put the non-tender in context. Sure, the Giants non-tendering Keppinger is a signal that he’s not worth the projected post-arbitration salary, but it doesn’t mean he has no value. If he’s willing to come in for <$2M, I bet that there will be a few SS-depleted contending teams willing to give up an interesting prospect or two for a few months of a 32 year old infielder who never strikes out and plays a passable defense at 2B and 3B.
by Snake Diggity on Dec 13, 2011 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with snake on this one
A .300-hitting infielder who is not overpaid is always worth something at the trade deadline.
Let’s see what guys like Keppinger and Theriot will cost. There are some teams that would like to have a good sub or platoon player at 2d base (examples: Tigers, Brewers, and Braves). So, I don’t know that the salaries will fall all that much. Also, I’m sure that Keppinger and Theriot would prefer to go to a contender if they have to take pay cuts.
Theriot and Sanchez can still play the position, albeit probably at a below average level. Keppinger’s range is worse than those two guys, and he really can’t play the position anymore. Keppinger didn’t play shortstop at all for the Astros and Giants last year. He only played 88 innings at SS in 2009 and (yes, a small sample) put up a -60 UZR/150. The last time Keppinger played a substantial number of innings (880) at shortstop was 2008 and he was -14 UZR/150. I can’t see a team giving Keppinger more than occasional innings at SS. When Keppinger was traded to the Astros, Reds fans told us at TCB, “He will be fine as long as you keep him away from shortstop.”
Love me some Keppinger and think he’d make a good addition to the Downs/Paredes/Marwin mix.
by Snake Diggity on Dec 13, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
shortstop
we solved our ss situation with rule 5 acquisition of cubbie AAA ss.gives him a chance and gives time to villar……we are rebuilding..no need to spend a cent right now….keep acquiring talent. we may be ready right now to take a shot at contending. it would fit in plans to put together a major league roster from what we have..do this in spring training… then go into season with attitude of winning a lot….lots of questions of course, but also lots of answers..if it doesnt work it will answer questions….and we go on with rebuilding… i am optomistic about astros for present and future… mike h




























