Debunking The Astros To American League Myths
by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 7:00 AM CDT
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First I want to thank everyone for the grown up discussions in the comments regarding the possibility of the Astros moving to the AL West. Obviously a lot of you disagree with some of my thoughts but that hasn't stopped you from keeping the conversation civil. It's one the things that make The Crawfish Boxes so great.
If you haven't read a lot of the comments, we've been having a lot of discussions lately about the Astros potential move to the American League thanks to Mr. Gammons. During those discussions I've seen some misinformation argued. This article is intended to clarify some of that . If you've been keeping up with the comments this will be redundant but for those that don't read the comments this may be useful.
Myth 1: The Diamondbacks have said they would move to the American League.
Not true. I did see the article where it mentioned that the Diamondbacks would be willing to move, but then this article came out stating it was news to Diamondback CEO Derrick Hall. Maybe the Diamondbacks expressed interest about a possible move then realized they were dealing with MLB and needed a leg to stand on. Either way unless another team volunteers (unlikely) the focus will be on the Astros. I found this particular quote from the article interesting:
I would want to hear what our fans prefer.
Myth 2: There's no reason for any team to move.
There is, but you're not going to like it. Essentially Bud Selig and the rest of the owners want to add another wild card to each league. To accomplish this the players union has to sign off on adding another wild card. Well they're not going to just sign off something the owners want without asking for something in return. The players union want the leagues evened out. That means taking one team from the National League and putting them in the American League to even the leagues at 15 each. I guess you could technically say the players union is the one that wants interleague play nightly.
Myth 3: Selig clearly hates the Astros.
Yes he does. Of course he doesn't. Baseball needs a team to move to the American League. The problem is baseball can't just move a team to another league. The team has to be willing to move to the other league. An ownership change provides the perfect opportunity for MLB to have some leverage in getting a team to move. For a new owner to be approved he has to get 75 percent of the other owners to vote for his approval. Combined with Jim Cranes past provides Selig and the owners the perfect opportunity to drag their feet in an attempt to finagle Crane into approving a move to the AL. Ethically it's wrong but I don't really blame baseball for taking advantage of this unique opportunity. I don't blame you if you're upset with the strategy either.
Myth 4: Why not the Brewers? or any other team for that matter.
Path of least resistance. It's easier to move one team than two. If the Astros don't go to the AL they will most likely go to the NL West to reduce the NL Central from six to five teams. The Brewers are unlikely even though they have a history of being in the AL because of their proximity to the other NL Central teams. We can argue all day about logistics and the Astros getting screwed but for the other 5 teams in the NL Central their part of that area called the midwest and Houston is the uncool kid standing outside the tree house asking if he can come up. This is something you don't have to agree with but it's reality and it makes sense. Upsetting one fan base is better than upsetting two.
Myth 5: Tim is an AL loving whore.
This is true, but I'm not opposed to staying in the NL either.
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The more we discuss this issue, the more I like Tango’s idea to use a reverse auction type method to choose the team and the compensation. It passes both an economic test (minimizing the cost to other teams) and fairness test (because a team’s rights are violated unless the right is freely purchased).
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 7:45 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That probably won't happen...
But since the Astros are bring told to move, maybe MLB can at least throw some compensation draft picks the teams’ way.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 8:17 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I put this in a previous thread. Here is the link to Tango’s blog. I also pointed out that one of the commenters at The Book blog modified Tango’s proposal to simplify the process:
For Tango’s suggestion, you could hold a sealed-bid lowest bid auction: every NL team bids what they would pay NOT to move to the AL. The lowest bidder moves, and collects their own bid from every other NL team. Each team would know exactly what they would be paid if they move: bid $100K, if you move, you receive $1.5 million. If you don’t move, you pay no more than $100K. There’s no incentive to low-ball or play chicken or any of the usual guessing games with auctions. This system would arrive at the market solution quickly and efficiently. Of course, you would have to have a contingency re-alignment plan for each possible move: if a team from the NL West moves, the Astros join the West, etc. This would have to be spelled out in advance so everyone knows what can happen.
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good post.
You summed up the argument is somewhat rational, and pretty clearly at that. But I doubt this changes anybody’s minds.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 8:14 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
*You summed up the argument that the move is somewhat rational.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 8:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind just trying to eliminate some of the arguments that are not valid. I’m trying to drive the discussion to something more constructive like Clack’s comment which is an idea I had not heard before.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions
An admirable pursuit.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 9:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
that's fine timmy but...
Just you saying something is a myth doesn’t mean it is. I’m thing particularly about your “myths” 2 & 4. I don’t completely disagree with them but I don’t find them to be completely balanced either.
On your myth #2: This is the exact same way I see it. My comments reflect that. The only reason for the move is to balance out the leagues as an attachment to the additional wildcard. That is why its happening. No argument.
I’m saying that balancing out the leagues is not a very good reason. I’m saying that the interests of the player’s union don’t necessarily align with what’s best for baseball. I’m saying that the whole fairness issue with scheduling is way over blown as it relates to one division having 6 teams. I think the much bigger issue is the “haves vs have nots”. I think balancing out the leagues won’t really help anything. I haven’t read a good explanation anywhere that details how it will; all I’ve been able to find are a bunch of claims that it will.
Further, I haven’t read anywhere a good explanation of why adding a wild card with unbalanced leagues wouldn’t work. Unbalanced leagues have been working reasonably well. Maybe the disparity will be made worse with the addition of the wild card. But I want to see something from MLB that details the benefits & costs.
On your myth #4: Yes, it is easiest to move the Astros. But the reason it is easiest is because they don’t have ownership in place to resist it. The other owners are protected (interesting that none are willing to makes the switch themselves). It’s unethical & unfair and baseball should not do it this way. They should buy McClane out & then sell the team.
However, the arguments about the logistical hardships for the Astros & the Brewers are not illegitimate. Also, moving two teams instead of one is not illegitimate depending on the teams. There is a lot to consider. Damages to the teams versus damages to the Astros and profit & profit potential seem to be the biggest. In my scenario, damages to each of Milwaukee & KC’s fan bases seem to be less than to that of the Astros. Further, there is far more marketability & profit potential in Houston than those teams. You can’t necessarily just say 2 to 1 & leave it at that.
I’m not trying to say I’m definitely right. In fact, given my oblivious passion for this subject, I’m absolutely sure I’ve crossed the line a time or two. And, I’ve probably made arguments that even I wouldn’t try to defend under cooler circumstances.
I respect you a great deal for your contributions to this site. You’re always calm & level headed and it helps to make this site better, refreshing even. But, I don’t think it’s fair in this case to call these issues myths. Rather, we just need to trim the fat off of them & clarify what the real issue is.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 10:09 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Four I’ll allow, but number two involves the owners and players union and their reasoning. If the players union don’t get even leagues then the owners don’t get the wild card. Those two things not exclusive. If one side doesn’t get what they want they neither side get’s what they want. Again as I prefaced you may not like it, but that’s the reasoning for it.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
fair enough...
I do agree with you about the reality of #2. The players union has made that their stance & there is going to have to a give & take. I guess I just feel like the players don’t have a very good reason for it. I think they should have bigger fish to fry.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 11:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s easier to get into the playoffs when you only have to beat out 13 teams rather than 15 teams.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
oh no....lol
sorry, i cant help myself… That’s true it is. But then you have to conceed that this would hurt the playoff chances of roughly half of all players because half play in the AL where they have an advantage. I think. There has been pretty reasonable competitive balance in the NL. Even the pirates look like they’re on the way up. Seems to me the real imbalance is in the AL, especially the AL east. Moving the Astros does not help that.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 12:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The players union consists of players from both leagues. I think they’d rather have fair opportunity in both leagues.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m sure you’re right. That must be what they are thinking. Especially considering that players switch back & forth. I just think they have bigger fish to fry. But you fight the battles you can win so I guess I’ll have to learn to accept that.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 12:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the perception is worse than the reality concerning imbalanced leagues.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 12:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
not necessarily
since the schedules are unbalanced, it depends upon the quality of the competition…i.e. it’s easier to beat out 15 crappier teams than 13 competitive teams. i understand the basic rationale, but there are exceptions to be noted.
there are other means by which to achieve balance; 3 5-team divisions in both leagues is a path of least resistance. but is it the best path? for some, sure; for others, well…it depends on the circumstances.
regarding those circumstances, consider myth 3—i suggest that if this move is wrong ethcially than baseball (i.e., selig) should be blamed for it. this is a league that has condemned many players and managers for past unethical conduct. even crane is getting the twice-over due to ethical concerns. let’s place blame where it belongs.
Kicking off another 200-comment article. I like it.
Again, I’ll state that fans’ anger at the Astros over this issue is misplaced. Write a letter to your congressman. Picket outside of Selig’s house. But keep going to the Astros games. It’s still baseball.
If people feel strongly enough about it that they don’t want to go to Astros’ games any more, there is nothing irrational about that. In fact, it is almost a definition of economic rationality….vote with your feet, or in other words, spend your money (and time) where you get more psychic benefit.
I have never said that I will cease being an Astros fan, by the way. I think the possibility exists that the intensity of my fandom will go way down, but I’ll wait until it happens to find out. Sports fandom is mostly an emotional connection and so that’s a personal decision.
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know you didn't. Others did though.
MLB doesn’t care if the Astros have fans show up. If they cared, they’d do something about the Rays and Marlins. “Voting with their feet” by not showing up to Astros games doesn’t matter in the least. MLB’s money comes from TV revenues, and advertisers will continue to pay to advertise even if the viewership drops by 10%. MLB just doesn’t care about game attendance. Only the individual clubs do, and this hurts the Astros more than it hurts the fans and more than it hurts MLB.
Follow up...
Rather than avoiding the Astros, we should be supporting them. They get blackmailed into the AL West? We should get behind them and support them in the hope that they can set up a winning tradition there. Nothing would thumb it in Selig’s face like the Astros returning to relevance while his Brewers sell off Fielder, lose Greinke at his next payday, watch Braun’s contract outlive his skill, and stare upwards as the Cardinals continually pass them into the Series.
It’s just a short-sighted reaction.
I had a close friend who was a rabid Cowboys’ fan for most of his life; but he became very upset with the way that Jones threw Tom Landry to the wayside. He refused to watch Cowboys’ game again. And he never did. To him, this unfairness took all of the fun out of being a Cowboys’ fan. It’s such a personal reaction, I can’t see criticizing him. Sure, he missed some great Cowboys’ Super Bowl runs, but it didn’t change his feelings.
In this case, the Astros do have a role in this because the team has to approve the move. In some ways I feel sorry for Jim Crane in this matter. But he does need to know that it could affect his fan base if he succombs to the MLB extortion.
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I quit watching the NBA when Charles Barkley retired. So I do think there’s a very good chance some fans will quit watching a team if a switch to the AL is possible. However I think a winning ball club will soften people’s stance as well as bring in new fans.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
However I think a winning ball club will soften people’s stance as well as bring in new fans.
Realistically, that’s just so far away. I agree that fans that really hate the move would be more likely to accept it if the team wasn’t such a scorched earth of situation. As it stands now, it’s going to be really easy for fans not in favor of the move to ignore the team. There’s nothing compelling and nothing to really look forward to. You add the anger to that and this is really the worst possible time for it to happen. When people glance at the standings and see them 25 games out of first at the all star break, they won’t be rushing to jump back in.
by MadMartygan on Oct 17, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you that all of the events happening at once seems to compound the sense of angst or dismay among Astros fans.
The Astros’ farm system is bad and we already have to wait to become competitive; the Astros just had the worst season in their history; the Astros’ franchise is sold at a price that makes you wonder if the new ownership group will have enough remaining resources to rebuild well; and the Astros’ payroll declines and the Astros trade away their good players as a result.
Adding the move to the AL on top of all of that seems like adding insult to injury, particularly since it probably further lengthens the time that is required for the Astros to become competitive.
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this position. It’s hard to say if I’ll still be a fan but I do expect my interest to drop sharply.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 9:01 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But again, that screws the Astros more than anything else. It’s irritating to us, but we’ll not be the ones losing bajillions of dollars and fan interest.
CRPerry13
I kind of attacked you another thread the other day. Put some words in your mouth. My bad.
I have added a comment up there if u care to read it.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 9:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Pfft no worries man
I didn’t think it was an attack, it just made me say, “Wait, when did I say that?” No problemo.
Please, Lord, Not the AL
My cousin’s a Rangers fan. Has been for thirty plus years, God bless him. Through thick and thin (and thin and thin and thin and now thick, again).
I don’t want that relationship to get strained.
And I hate that stupid DH. The whole mess feels like special teams in football.
I probably should have chimed in a couple of posts ago
But I want to say that both the writers and commenters on this site are doing a fantastic job of discussing this issue.
For me, a move to the AL West would be a bummer for the simple fact that it feels like the Astros are moving to a new school and have to make all new friends. That’s such a lousy feeling, and for seemingly no real reason that is beneficial to the Astros.
Personally I don’t mind a move to a West division because I normally don’t get home until late anyway and a 9 PM game is perfect with my schedule, but I’d prefer a move to the NL West. I still feel a strong dislike for the Dodgers and Giants going back to the old NL West alignment, and I think it would be fun to rekindle that. It sure beats taking a fanbase that already feels like it’s shrinking and trying to sell them on the merits of coming to see the Mariners and A’s.
by pancakebreakfast on Oct 17, 2011 9:57 AM CDT reply actions
Compensation
So if you’re opposed to a move the AL. What kind of compensation would you get you to move? Or is there no compensation that would satisfy you. Obviously many of you would be happy to rid baseball of the DH but let’s try to keep it somewhat realistic.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 10:56 AM CDT reply actions
and by realistic
I mean it’s not going to happen with an Astros move to the AL. Maybe some where in the future it goes away but it’s not happening now.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
This is the real question.
I’d like for the conversation to turn to this as well. I’m not going to like the move to the AL as you know. My intensity as a fan will decline no matter what. But, somehow I do think fair compensation would go a long way to bringing me back.
I posted a comment on this once that was pretty sensationalist. It wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously but rather to bring this issue up for discussion.
Maybe I’m wrong but this seems similar to an expansion situation in some ways so I think draft compensation could be reasonable. Mainly as a way to appease the fans with some new shiny prospects to be excited over. I’m not saying go crazy with it. I’d like a 1st rd & a 2nd round comp pick for one or two years.
I think Crane is definitely entitled to financial compensation or a lowering of the sale price. I also think maybe 5 or 6 million per year in additional revenue sharing (for a limited # of years) would be fair. It would help offset the immediate effects of the DH on the payroll.
Something else I’ve mentioned before is the idea of adjusted start time for at least some of the games on the west coast. Say maybe 1 hr earlier for at least one game of each series we play on the west coast.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 11:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i feel
it’s the manner in which this business is being conducted—behind closed doors, with much arm-twisting, with such disregard for fans—that makes the situaiton so much worse. if selig had approached this thing differently i might feel differently about it.
recognizing the inevitable, however, let’s have a 50-year farewell tour to the n.l. and to the astros! let’s go to the a.l. with a new name and a fresh start!
I still don’t understand how renaming the team and obliterating the old Astros is any better than simply moving them. Wouldn’t that be worse for the fanbase?
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 12:35 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Mike probably feels similar to the way I do in that forcing them to the AL west (especially in such a unethical way) & kicking them while there down pretty much does wipe out the concept of the Astros. It changes the identity of the team.
A basic rule in life: If you take peoples ideas away from them, they get pissed.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 12:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Move the D-backs/Eliminate Divisions
Moving the Diamondbacks or Rockies would make more sense from a travel perspective. Even the leagues by time zone—7 east, 4 central, 4 pacific/mountian.
Then to avoid having a potential second best team playing a one-game playoff to get in, just eliminate divisions and play a close-to-balanced schedule.
Rangers and Astros considered former west division teams in their respective leagues.
Play the former division teams 11 games over 4 series.
Play the other 10 teams 10 games over 3 series.
Play 4 interleague series, including 2 against the local/state/regional rival.
156 games in 175 days
50 series in 25 weeks
4th and 5th best teams play a best-of-3 on the weekend after the season ends on Wednesday.
Expand the rest of the postseason to best-of-7, and with the shortened regular season by a week, the World Series would still end in October.
Baseball fixed.
"baseball fixed" lol, i like that
This actually doesn’t sound too bad. It’s so radical that I’ll need to think on it. Cudos for outside the box thinking.
I like the idea of shortening the season by a week if the extra wild card round is added.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 12:57 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I like the scheduling ideas. I’m not sure eliminating divisions would work very well. I think a big function of divisions is that they give small & middle market teams a better chance to compete.
I think eliminating the all together would create even more massive arms races between the bigger teams. Spending is already out of control sure but, at least right now they’re only trying to keep up with the teams in their division. It’d get worse if they suddenly keep up with every team.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 1:57 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The no division idea was how baseball originally was played. Of course they had fewer
teams back then and played fewer games as well. I could go for that and it would still allow the Astros to stay in the NL which is what we ALL would like.
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
I really don’t buy the small market argument, especially if they’re expanding to five teams per league having a chance at the playoffs. The AL played a balanced schedule from 1979-1993 with divisions. If you take away the divisions and just look at records, the 5th best team in those years averaged 86 wins. That was with 14 teams. Any team now can aspire to an 86-76 record in any given year.
The way they’re going to do it with just adding a wild card is too messed up:
—uneven schedules
—possible 2nd best team being penalized based on geography and nothing else
—a second wildcard team clinching before the first wildcard is out of their division race, and the second wildcard can hold their best pitcher for a one-game playoff
—are they keeping the rule about teams from the same division playing in the division series? Another inequity.
They need to go to a balanced schedule where the top 3 teams earn their playoff spots, and the 4th and 5th best teams play to get in. That’s the only way to do the playoff expansion right.
Good points
You & strossouth might be right. I could be swayed one way or the other on the no divisions topic. I just haven’t imagined it very much.
I believe in the concept of the 5 best teams moving on. It’s pure American in concept. (USA!, USA!) But still, there is a small voice in the back of my mind that whispers divisions serve a purpose in a checks & balances kind of way. I can’t really put a finger on it.
Keep talking though. You may just convince me.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 2:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How do you convince the owners?
I’m thinking there is probably more money in having division winners. As a fan, I’d much rather say “We won the division!” Than “We finished third!”.
Just words i know. But I think it’s just more marketable that way. It’s kinda like your parents keeping your 5th place trophy from 1st grade.
I realize you’ll probably laugh at this. I kinda do too. It’s probably not that important I guess. I’m just curious what some might think.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 2:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can’t argue with that, but instead of “We won the division!”, it would go to “We made the playoffs!”. After you get there, it’s still “We won the pennant!”, and “We won the World Series!”.
If you noticed, some of the playoff hats and shirts don’t even mention divisions anymore. The hats and sweatshirts just said “MLB Playoffs”.
I know it’s a tough sell and it’s hard for people to imagine two leagues without divisions, but I think it would work great if they gave it a shot. They could do it for a year or two, and if it didn’t work some reason, they could go right back to divisions. My belief is that it makes too much sense not to work, but they’ll never do it because they don’t have the guts.
If it worked before it could work again. Ive never heard the fans of teams celebrate
their teams as being wild card winners. They always tend to celebrate just making the playoffs. I know would just be happy if the Astros made the playoffs. So why not do away with the wild card winners and just take the top four or five teams from both leagues and let them battle it out? Makes a lot of sense to me.
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
sure they do.
That’s just the way the marketing campaign is set up. Those flags on the facade at minute maid say NL wildcard champions 2004 & 2005. They don’t say Division runner up 2004 & 2005.
But the no divisions idea does make a lot of sense. Maybe too much to ignore. Anyway this division winner vs whatever you call it without divisions is just a small marketing problem. I’m sure someone could fix it pretty easy. In fact, something as simple as gold, silver, bronze, wildcard could work.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 3:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Youdont meet too many fans going around bragging about their team
being wild card winners. They usually brag about making the playoffs and fail to mention he wild card part of it. I know Ive never bragged about wild card winners.
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
The flags they dispay could be as simple as “2013 Playoffs” if you don’t make the World Series. And then “2013 NL Champions” or “2013 World Series Champions”, depending on the outcome.
Personally, I think the series between the 4th and 5th place teams should be to get in the playoffs. No merchandise or raising flags or whatever until you actually win that best-of-3 series.
Drayton had more more of a role in that than Bud. Drayton had several opportunities to move the games to a neutral site like Atlanta but waited until the last minute. At that point all the neutral site venues were booked forcing Houston to Milwaukee.
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll concede slightly there
but why a neutral venue anyway. I’m not downplaying Hurricane Ike, and I don’t want to trivialise it because it was a horrific event that affected a lot of people, but (and I may be ignorant here), but how many games have the Marlins had to play in neutral locations over the past decade?
Drayton deserves his fair share.
But did it really HAVE to be Milwaukee? I’m not so sure & it was a long time ago so its hard to recall all the details. Seems to me bud Selig should have made sure it was a neutral site no matter what to avoid the appearance of bias. Especially considering the possible play off implications. Wouldn’t a college field, minor league field, or even a high school field have been better for appearances?
To be clear I don’t truly think Selig hates the Astros. But I do think he is biased towards Milwaukee & makes decisions in their favor.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 1:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I strongly agree on this
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
Was there no way
to play the game at Round Rock? Or some other minor league park? It seems like a few games in a small minor league stadium with sell outs would be better for Drayton than a few games far away with 10 Cubs fans.
I can defend Drayton McLane somewhat on this point. Up until the last few days or so, it was not clear that Ike would hit Houston square on. If the hurricane had hit farther south or north, which was a possibility, the team hoped to be able to play a doubleheader on Sunday and another game on Monday at MMP. Following the hurricane closely at that point—like most people in Texas—I recall that there was substantial doubt about where the hurricane would hit on the Texas coast. Also the players opposed moving the game at that point because they would not be able to help their families evacuate if it became necessary, as indicated by Mark Loretta’s quote in this article. I think the claim that McLane somehow caused this problem is a myth (mostly perpetuated by Richard Justice). Here is another article with Astros’ players lashing out at Selig:
Brocail…“it was obvious the name on the jerseys played a role in the decision.”
Berkman…“Major League Baseball has always valued the dollar more than they do the individual, the players and their families…That’s one reason why players try to exploit the system to the max because they know they’re being treated the same way. That’s a sad part of the game.”
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not to belabor the issue…but the Astros’ players had horrible experiences from the Hurricane Rita evacuation which led them to feel strongly that they needed to be with their families if the hurricane hit the Houston area. The Astros were on the road during Hurricane Rita, and the players had to try to manage their families’ evacuation and shelter from Pittsburgh. Morgan Ensberg’s wife and small child started to evacuate but got stuck in the massive traffic jams and had to go back to Houston to find shelter. Brad Lidge found a former minor league teammate who offered his wife, child, and dog shelter in Round Rock. But after 12 hours, she only made it as far as Brenham before she ran out of gas, and Lidge had to arrange for a friend-of-a-friend with a small plane to land and pick her up. These weren’t unusual experiences. The same type of thing (running out of gas, etc.) happened to my sister and nieces/nephews who were evacuating.
by clack on Oct 17, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Richard Justice
Richard still seems to think its the skeletons in the closet thing with Crane that is holding up the sale and not the AL switch.
by conroestro on Oct 17, 2011 2:41 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Him and Maury Brown are working for MLB
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by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Im begining to tire of the same discussions
I like that someone said “I’m just an NL guy”, as that really describes how I feel. Yes there are negatives to moving and whatnot, but ultimately I’m just a fan of NL ball. This is where I’m comfortable. 7:05 games are what I’m comfortable with. The Cards, Brewers, Reds, Cubs, and Pirates are what I’m comfortable with. Besides, I told all of you when Dra first announced he was selling that I fear change. This is a drastic change.
On another note, evening out the leagues does make sense but not when both teams wind up with odd numbers. It makes it more of a problem IMO, at least scheduling-wise, as two teams (one in each league) is always the odd team out and will either play interleague or sit quietly to the side. And adding ANOTHER wild card? Sure that ups the stakes with more teams competing in the playoffs which in turn gives more money to that extra club, putting more money in the owners pockets. But then we are faced with another scheduling problem as there are now 5 teams in each league’s post season. Tell me how that works? You can’t have interleague play in the post season before the WS, that would just cheapen the WS experience.
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 3:27 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
One game playoff between the wild cards get’s it down to 4 teams
Follow my ramblings on Twitter .
by Timothy De Block on Oct 17, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
A 1 game playoff?
Then what’s the point? That can really weaken a teams chances. For instance, say the Astros and Rockies both make the WC. You know that if you don’t beat the Rockies you don’t advance, so you put your best team on the field. You start your best SP, be it short rest or not, use your best bullpen pieces, not worrying about fatigue in coming games…you use everything you have to advance.
Now say the Astros do in fact win. You won the game but you’ve already used your best SP, your best bullpen pieces could use a day off, if not today then definately tomorrow, and you’re facing a team that’s fresh.
It seems like the WC would be set up to fail, but I guess they should just be happy that they made it to the post season at all, right? I mean its not like they earned it with a division win or anything…
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 4:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Im sorry if Im coming off bitter
But the fact that we’ve been on a downward slope for the past few years and things look to continue to go even more against us, it just seems like everything is piling on top of us and there’s no hope in sight. Can’t we please just have a weekly AFL update or something to brighten the mood and get back to something positive?
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 4:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Some people in baseball feel the wild card team doesn’t get put at a disadvantage enough for being a wild card team. Adding another wild card and a 1 game playoff puts that wild card team at a disadvantage. Throw in the fact that we’ve had some exciting one game playoffs the last few years and it’s the perfect recipe for MLB to tinker with the playoff format.
I don’t know how I feel about a wild card team being put at a disadvantage but I do like the idea of a 1 game playoff.
Follow my ramblings on Twitter .
by Timothy De Block on Oct 18, 2011 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I’m not sure I’m ok with the 1 game playoff either. I think I’d rather see the season shortened to allow for at least a three game series. But then I wouldn’t want the other teams sitting still for 4 or 5 days getting cold either. And it would probably mean getting rid of inter league play. Not that I care about interleague much but it would be a stumbling block.
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 4:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It already has cheapend the WS imo.
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
lol me too...
Starting now. But I am an NL guy though…..dang it! Starting now! My fingers just keep typing because NL>AL…OK, starting now!!!
Come on guys lets talk compensation
by man07 on Oct 17, 2011 4:07 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Lets talk DRAFT!!!
We do in fact have the #1 pick!!! Yay!!! It Happened!!!
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 4:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Nick Williams!
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
They're all good but...
I think (but don’t necessarily want) the organization needs, and will go after a legit college pitcher with Ace potential. However if Cosart or someone else steps up big time before the draft we could go another route. I personally like the big bat idea but who knows maybe Roache will fall to the 2nd round and we can pick up a legit power threat?
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 5:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Roache was a monster this year. I’m surprised he isn’t getting a lot of first round hype going into 2012.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 6:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I’ll bet they take Appel or one of the Williams duo. It seems like high school pitchers don’t generally get picked first overall nowadays.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 5:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nor should they
There is just too much that can go wrong with a pitcher, especially a young unproven pitcher, to take that big of a risk on. There really aren’t that many prospects though that are a sure thing so…damned if you do, damned if you don’t?
by Its Gonna Happen on Oct 17, 2011 5:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree.
Big risks are involved with taking a high school pitcher that high. Now, if the Astros had the #5 pick in the draft, I’ll bet they’d look hard at taking one of the top high school arms. But if we take a pitcher first overall, I hope its Appel.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 6:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
There's so much risk aversion in this process
Drafting a huge bust with the #1 overall pick can be a disaster for a franchise so they usually go for the sure thing. For that reason, I’d bet the pick is Appel, it just seems like Giolito is such an impressive specimen that they have to look at him. To me, he reminds me of Dylan Bundy, the third pick last year, in that he’s very polished for a HS arm but he might even have more upside than Bundy.
by Patrick Harrel on Oct 17, 2011 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Giolito looks good so far, yeah.
He’s already what, 6"7, 6"8? And he’s got an excellent fastball already. I certainly wouldn’t be broken up if we picked him.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 17, 2011 9:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He has this amazingly smooth delivery
He’s 6’7" with a fastball already hitting 98 despite the fact that he just turned 17 a couple of months ago (he’ll be 17 when we or someone else drafts him). He has five pitches, one of which looks like a potentially filthy curveball and a decent circle-change. The only issue with him is the fact that he lacks some control and he’s a high school pitcher (injury risk). But, as upside goes, he’s got as much of it as anyone in the class.
by Patrick Harrel on Oct 17, 2011 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
re: Proximity question
“Upsetting one fan base is better than upsetting two.”
- Milwaukee has an AL Central history.
- Kansas City has an AL West history.
- Houston, obviously, has no AL history whatsoever.
Somehow, I think the degree of upset might be a point you’d rather avoid, seeing the position you’ve taken.
by __sturt__ on Oct 17, 2011 8:23 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Hello Sturt and welcome
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
American League, Shamerican League, let's just do it
I’m so tired of this waiting around. The ‘stros have been on hold since May. NOTHING is going to get done until the deal goes through. It’s agony. And if they miss the chance to get Phat Albert or The First Baseman Formerly Known as Prince, it will be far worse. The team can get birch-slapped by AL teams as easily as NL teams for the next three years.
Do you really think this franchise would overpay for those two first basemen?
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
There is no scenario in which I want to see either guy in an Astros uniform. They’ll be long past their peak before the Astros see the playoffs again, and in the meanwhile they will consume so much money that the Astros won’t be able to spend elsewhere. No thank you. I’ll take my suffering now in hopes of a greater reward down the road.
AL is the end for me
I am a lifetime Astros fan, but if they move to the AL, that’s it for me.
I have turned baseball off mainly because the Astros are so bad, but I have found I don’t miss it at all. My kids all hate baseball.
Throw out 45 years of tradition? Final straw.
Oh yeah. Having that stupid little team from Dallas go to the world series twice is just insult to injury.
I don’t get why people dislike the Rangers so much.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 18, 2011 9:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Now that it has come out that the Rangers management has been one of the primary parties in MLB pushing for sending the Astros to the AL, I have a negative view of them and very much want them to lose the World Series. Before this I didn’t have much in the way of negative or positive feelings about the Rangers. However, even without the realignment issue, I normally would want the NL to win the World Series. So, I would want the Cards to defeat the Cards just because I support the NL teams. I think that’s pretty normal, just like most fans of any Big 12 team usually want Big 12 teams to win their bowl games.
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
correction: “Cards to defeat the Rangers”
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now that you mention that the Rangers are a big part of the Astros bring moved, I can see that being a cause for bad blood. I hadn’t really thought of that.
But I’m guess I’m referring to this disdain for the Rangers that existed in some posters here before the move. As they played in a different league, I assumed that most fans would simply be indifferent to them. But, now that we will be division rivals, that will surely change.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 18, 2011 10:17 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I was indifferent to them until I just read what Clack wrote. I could see some people hating them just out of a Houston-Dallas thing.
by MadMartygan on Oct 18, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
The Houston/Dallas thing probably is a factor. Dallas is definitely a very snooty place at times…
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 18, 2011 10:23 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
*big part of the Astros BEING moved
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 18, 2011 10:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm pulling fir the cards too.
Almost always NL. But with Nolan & the rangers FO pushing the AL move I’m really pulling against the rangers.
Before anyone defends Nolan: I don’t blame him for wanting it but it’s not right doing it this way & I can still be mad at him!
by man07 on Oct 18, 2011 1:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
If I were commisioner, here's how I'd handle it...
1) Add 2 expansion franchises. There are cities out there (Austin/San Antonio, Portland, Las Vegas, New Orleans) that could clearly support an MLB franchise and it would be an easy way to level out the leagues and divisions without an existing franchise having to move anywhere.
2) If no new teams are added, just start over and re-align the entire MLB. It would make sense to have every team on the Pacific coast in the same division because of the ease of travel and the logical geographical rivalries. Of course, the biggest argument would be the historic franchises like the Yankees/Redsox wanting to stay put in the AL and the Cardinals/Cubs wanting to stay in the NL, but I think exceptions could certainly be made to keep those teams where they are while shuffling around others so all the divisions are evenly aligned.
3) If option 2 is unfeasable, or perhaps in conjunction with option 2, offer any team that offers to switch leagues a 1st or 2nd round compensation pick in the June amateur draft the following year. Considering how important prospects have become in the game, you’d think a few teams might actually jump at that offer.
I like your 1st suggestion
But what would you do about the DH in the other two?
Expansion team in Texas
It would be pretty cool if an MLB Franchise ended up in San Antonio. I recall that a few years back there were discussions about moving the Marlins there. But I don’t know how serious they got.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Oct 18, 2011 10:13 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Won't happen due to the MLB TV rights agreements
neither Hou or Texas will agree to an additional team, especially with the Astros RSN launching and the Rangers most recent TV deal.
I also doubt the value of the compensation to move to the AL will be anything tangible like draft picks. I would expect instead the MLB to acquire a portion of debt from the Astros instead of giving capital.
Why would other teams agree on making the Astros flush with cash going into FA? Why would they agree to skew the competitive balance of the draft by giving additional picks?
Try to think of compensation measures that will 1) be something other teams will agree upon and 2) something that will not provide Hou with an advantage in either the draft or FA. As it is, the MLB has the power in this negotiation. The only way Crane gets approved is if the Astros agree to move. The only way Drayton can ever sell is if his potential buyer understands that. No one is going to flat out say it, but the truth of the matter is that it is going to happen regardless. The question really is how much compensation will the Astros get if Crane cones to his senses and actually plays nice.
JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook
LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"
In the long term, what difference does a compensation pick make? I mean, look at the amount of compensation picks the Rays had last year and, although I think many teams didn’t necessarily like it, nobody flat out refused to participate in the draft because of it.
The reason I suggested a draft pick is that it’s a good compromise. Giving a team an incentive to switch leagues makes the entire process much easier. Yes, you may not like to switch leagues, but hey, here’s a free draft pick as consolation. It also doesn’t cost anyone anything to execute, either.
I don’t know what you mean by “if Crane comes to his senses and actually plays nice…” I don’t see anything he has said or done about the approval process that is incorrect or wrong.
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’d like to see expansion teams & we do away with interleague but I see this as all but impossible because MLB will never do it.
If expansion teams were added though I think some candidate cities would be New Orleans, Sacramento, San Antonio (although I wouldn’t like it for the Astros), Memphis, Nashville, Las Vegas could all be feasible.
by man07 on Oct 18, 2011 1:12 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
New Orleans and Sacramento have not been very successful as basketball markets.
I am sceptical that they can support baseball teams.
by Texas Wahoo on Oct 18, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Basketball sucks though.
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
Crane meets with his board of directors
One can speculate that he might be presenting whatever has been offered up by MLB for approval.
The decision making process for this ownership group seems like it could become awkward:
While Crane is the leader of the group, other parties are responsible for about 80 percent of the financial commitment, counting only the roughly $385 million in cash, hence the need for group decision-making. The board consists of 11 seats, although there are dozens of investors, as many of the blocks of fractional ownership have been further split up.
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 11:30 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Drayton has to be pretty po'd about this.
He’s always played the good soldier for Selig, and now after getting this huge selling price MLB is taking their time.
by MadMartygan on Oct 18, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Just last week, Brown’s article said that Crane had not met with Selig, contrary to what was written by others. In this article, Brown says that Crane met with Selig two weeks ago. I find this confusing.
by clack on Oct 18, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
good point.
I noticed this as well. Guess that means brown admits he was wrong about the meeting? I think we’re all pretty sure he’s wrong about MLBs motives so it wouldn’t surprise me.
by man07 on Oct 18, 2011 1:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Not that anyone asked ...
… but here’s my two cents. I grew up a fan of both the Astros & Mariners, though living near Houston the Astros took precedence. So concerning the simple baseball aspect of the whole deal, I am kind of excited at the prospect of us playing the Mariners often. However, my big beef with the whole deal is that it is being decided upon in a completely unfair and extortionist manner. I think the issue should be deliberated fairly amongst all the NL teams to see who would be willing to go to the AL. For all we know, a team like the Diamondbacks might have a fanbase that would be stoked to move to the AL! I think all the options should be openly explored by MLB. Too bad that’s never gonna happen … :(
by super_shredder on Oct 18, 2011 12:41 PM CDT reply actions
various.....
i like the no division format…. but if we stay like it is and move to al…west… we need to insist that dbacks or rockies are in al west with us…move seattle to nl west…or oakland…
sabathia and others… i would not give them long term deals…i would not sign anyone past 37 yrs age… astros are looking good… teams are looking for shortstops…that is why barmes is a good deal even if he hits .250 with 13 hrs….offer him $3m a yr…team is rebuilding…. or maybe trade him….to some who are looking…mike h
The minute this team moves to the AL...........
I’m done with the Astros and baseball………I am sick of Selig and the way he treats Houston. You only have to go back to Hurricane Ike to know that he wants to do damage to the Astros organization. Nice set up for the Cubs that year though!
Arizona does not have anywhere near our history in the NL…..MOVE THEM to the AL.
Crane is selling us out. He couldn’t care less about the city and he’s staring to show no concern about the fan base. He is going to kill this team and Minute maid will be so empty you will be able to hear a mouse fart during player introductions.
by AstrosBill on Oct 20, 2011 11:52 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
american league....
first.,,, agree it needs to be done…even up the divisions…what about two divisions in each league?… second, i think it is good move for astros…but would like to have rockies or dbacks in al also… because.. 3 pacific coast teams plays havoc with tv broadcst of games to texas…they will be on at 9pm…good division.. oakland and seattle are weak sisters… angels are real good… and of course texas is real good.. third..i like the way astros are rebuilding…keep it up… a very good core is being developed…i look for a .500 team in 2012…realistic… and after that up up up and away…magnus
yankees go to japan for pitcher
most japan pitchers are not that good. nomo was real good. some others have been ok, but not that good…. park was good, but he is korean… i cant believe yankee pitching is not stronger with the $$$$ they spend… in re move to al by astros…i think los angeles angels will start a rebuilding job NOW>>….. they have gotten old….mike h
I hate to say it
First let me say I am a long time astros fan. Also the M’s so this could get tough for me.
But another reason it will be the astros and not the Brewers…. The Brewers are good.
AL W teams are not going to care that the astros are coming to the division. The team is not that good right now and so it will not be a huge shake up.
Think about if the yanks all of the sudden were to come to the NL central. Everyone from SL to houston would cry foul.
Easier to move a bad team than a good one I think.
duel fanship
I know how you feel. The separation of the leagues and differences allows baseball fans to be fans of multiple teams. Especially for baseball fans in the Lone Star State.
by Ryan2907 on Nov 13, 2011 11:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Fanbase
Has no one considered that both the Rangers and Astros would lose fans if both teams were in the same division? There are a number of fans from both sides who support and are fans of both teams, including me, mainly because of both teams being in separate leagues. I want to be a fan of both the Rangers and Astros but if they play in the same league/division, I would be forced to choose one. With recent teams success, the Astros stand to lose more fans. It would be a mistake to have the only two teams in Texas be in the same division.
by Ryan2907 on Nov 13, 2011 11:17 AM CST via mobile reply actions
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Current Series
Astros lead the series 1-0
| Fri 05/25 |
WP: Lucas Harrell (4 - 3)
SV: Brett Myers LP: Clayton Kershaw (4 - 2) |
3 - 1 win |
|
Houston Astros
Saturday, May 26, 2012, 9:10 PM CDT Bud Norris vs Chad Billingsley Mostly clear. Winds blowing out to right field at 5-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 65. |
||
| Sun 05/27 | 3:10 PM CDT | |
NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Cincinnati
|
25 | 20 | .555 | 0 | Lost 1 |
|
St. Louis
|
25 | 21 | .543 | 0.5 | Lost 2 |
|
Houston
|
22 | 23 | .488 | 3 | Won 4 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
21 | 24 | .466 | 4 | Won 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
19 | 26 | .422 | 6 | Won 2 |
|
Chicago
|
15 | 30 | .333 | 10 | Lost 10 |
(updated 5.26.2012 at 6:14 PM CDT)
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