Should Hunter Pence be a Long-Term Part of the Astros' Future?
Once thought to be a young star in the making, Hunter Pence had a rookie season in 2007 not unlike the one Chris Johnson is having right now, hitting for both average and power and producing a lot of value despite not drawing a lot of walks. Ever since then, while he has been an above average player, his performance hasn't lived up to either the expectations for him or to his tools and potential.
Pence has a pair of the strongest wrists I've ever seen from a hitter. He's displayed time and time again the ability to choke up farther on the bat than you would ever think reasonable and still crush the ball a mile over the railroad tracks in Minute Maid Park. His bat speed allows him to make contact with even the best fastballs. In the past, he has been a plus defender due to above average speed and a strong throwing arm.
He's entering a hitter's prime years, which tend to be from age 27-31; the time when a hitter's skills peak and his physical abilities are still at their best.
So why, according to FanGraphs' Wins Above Replacement (WAR), is he on track be below Major League Average in this, his age 27 season, what you would expect to be one of the best of his entire career?
Weak Contact Outside The Zone
Pence is third in the National League in groundball rate this season, at 55.6% behind only our own Michael Bourn and the Cardinals' Skip Schumaker. His groundball rate has gradually been trending up every year of his career, and this season represents a career high. For a slugger, hitting lots of groundballs is a bad thing. Of all batted ball types, grounders have the lowest average OPS (on-base-plus-slugging percentage) other than infield flies.
Speaking of pop-ups, Pence's infield fly rate is up too, at 13.0%. Not good.
Why is all of this happening? While Pence is striking out at a lower rate, he's been expanding his strike zone more than at any other time in his career. He's swinging at more pitches outside the zone (32.6%), fewer pitches inside of it (66.2%), and most importantly, his contact rate on pitches outside the zone is by far the highest of any time in his career, at 67.6%. It shouldn't be a surprise, then, that he's hitting more groundballs and infield flies and that his batting average on balls in play is lower now than any other full season in his career. When you reach outside the zone, it's hard to barrel up on a ball and get it into the air.
Furthermore, this change has sapped his power, the key to his offensive game. ISO, or Isolated Power, is a popular sabermetric measurement of a player's raw power. It is found by subtracting a player's batting average from his slugging percentage, which results in a percentage number representing only extra base hits and not singles. Pence's ISO this season is also a career low at .166.
About the only positive you can draw from his average offensive performance this season is that he's striking out significantly less than at any other time in his career. When this comes at the expense of hitting for average and power, however, it's not actually a good thing. He needs to lay off those pitches outside the zone, not reach for them and hit them weakly.
Getting into the month-by-month breakdown of his performance, he's been improving since July. His groundball rate is going down, his flyball rate is going up, and OPS in July was back up around his career average, as well. Call it a hot streak, call it regression, call it the Bagwell Effect, call it whatever you like--at least he's heading in the right direction. But Pence is a notoriously streaky hitter, and while his batted ball numbers remain promising in August, his OPS is back down again; it's a small sample size, however, so it's important not to draw any conclusions from just a handful of games. Still, when a hitter runs hot and cold as much as Pence does, it's hard to ever get comfortable with any short term trend.
In short, his year-to-year trend of hitting more groundballs and consequently hitting for less power worries me more than his month-to-month trend this season of improvement gives me cause for optimism.
Declining Defensive Performance
In addition to worries about his offensive decline, Pence has contributed worries about his defense this season. It was widely reported that he came into Spring Training carrying much more bulk in the form of increased muscle mass. Basically, he's a bigger guy than he was a couple of years ago. Couple that with the natural decline to a player's footspeed as he enters his late 20s, and it's easy to see why his range would be down.
As on offense, Pence has never been a plus defender because of his skillset. His routes and reads can be iffy, and his throwing accuracy sometimes leaves something to be desired. What he has--or had--is a great set of tools, particularly his speed. If he's starting to lose that, it could be very troubling for his long term future as a fielder.
It's important to be cautious when employing defensive statistics in smaller sample sizes; they take longer to stabilize than offensive statistics, as much as three seasons. But when every defensive metric is saying the same thing, and that aligns with your subjective impressions watching a player day in and day out, that's when you sit up and take notice. Three different statistics--UZR, The Fielding Bible's Defensive Runs Saved, and TotalZone, all suggest that Pence's defensive performance has declined sharply this year.
Combine that with my impression that he's slower and the causative evidence we have that he wouldn't be as agile in the field (his increased bulk), and I'm convinced that he is not the same defender he was as recently as last year. I don't know whether he's as bad as the numbers suggest, but he's certainly not carrying his declining offense with plus performance on the other side of the ball.
And for a player who projects to be below average offensively for his position moving forward, that's a real problem.
What Should the Astros Do?
In the short term, nothing. Hunter Pence is the starting right fielder this season. We're past the trade deadline, so he can't be dealt (he would not clear waivers), and he's still providing surplus value over contract, at least for now. In the offseason, however, there is a decision to be made.
The Astros have put themselves into a bad situation by making Pence the new "face of the franchise" with promotions like Hunter's Lodge and advertising utilizing his image more frequently than any other Astros player (with Berkman and Oswalt now departed). The problem is that he isn't a franchise player. Even if he were to return to his career averages next season, while still a solid player, he wouldn't be a star. He's not the kind of player you want to lock up on a long-term contract and pay full open market value for, because he is not a building block and he's not reliable enough that you feel comfortable giving him that kind of contract.
They may need to abandon that idea and explore the possibility of trading Pence while he still has surplus value over contract. His pay will continue to rise each year until he hits free agency, and at the rate he's going now, it won't be long before his salary gets close to the value he is producing with his performance. Yes, Pence should have better years than this one; I wouldn't be surprised if he has a career year sometime in his future, although I'm not counting on it. Yet will the difference in perceived value actually be more than the rise in his salary and the loss in years of team control? The sooner they trade him, the more value they are likely to get back.
And it's not as though the Astros don't have in-house options to explore. Players like Brian Bogusevic, Drew Locke, Collin DeLome, or even Jason Bourgeois might be above replacement level performers in right field for the MLB minimum salary. I wouldn't be surprised to see a player like Bogusevic produce more surplus value over salary, at least for the next three years, than Pence is doing now.
Trading Pence would also be an opportunity to continue restocking the farm system with quality prospects; it has improved but could still stand to improve more. Alternatively, a mutually beneficial trade might be possible to get Major League ready pitching or middle infield help from another club which needs outfielders.
If the Astros don't trade Pence, however, they should consider putting him back on track to get his weight down and condition him more for speed again. His best year for Isolated Power was the season he played center field, 2007, when his training regimen was designed to keep him lighter and more agile (see this video). He's so strong in terms of his raw tools that he doesn't need to be a huge, ripped guy to hit for power. His increased muscle mass certainly appears to be hurting his range, and doesn't appear to have helped his power. His defensive range will be the key to his value moving forward if he's never more than an average offensive rightfielder in the long run.
But a trade still seems like the best option, particularly when you factor in the organization's outfield depth. Hopefully Pence will have a strong August and September, bringing his performance on the season up close to his career average, and increasing his value. Even if he doesn't, the Astros should strongly consider dealing him in the off-season.
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Pence’s BABIP is still about 30 points below predicted. So I am reasonably confident we are seeing a lot of bad luck on balls in play this year. With Berkman gone, I believe that Pence is now the Astros’ best hitter. (No, I’m not buying that the small sample size on CJ makes him a better hitter than Pence.) I wouldn’t be surprised if Pence pops up with a .900 or so OPS next year. I think he has that capability. Having said that, I don’t expect Pence to become a great star in the future. He has the kind of flaws which will make him inconsistent.
I don’t have an aversion to trading Pence. But I would want top value for him, and you’re not going to get that after a down year. I’m not so pessimistic about Pence that I would want to sell low on him. I don’t think Pence will bring a significant return at this point, mostly because teams will think they should get a bargain. If he has a big year, would the Astros then sell high? I might consider it. But, given the Astros desperation to have a new “face of the franchise,” maybe the team won’t do that. I have never been a fan of giving Pence a multi-year contract in his arb years, and I continue to feel that way— well, maybe unless the Astros can buy out his arb years sign at a really low price. If I felt like one of the Astros’ outfielders in Round Rock or Corpus is on path to be a star, I probably would be more inclined to trade Pence. At this point, unless Martinez comes through next year, it’s hard to see any of them as sure-fire starting outfielders.
It’s too early to reach conclusions about Pence’s down year as a defensive player. At times, Pence has looked very good in RF this year. However, it seems like he has had more “lapses” than usual which could result from a lack of concentration. Some people have always believed his ultimate future is as a LFer. Maybe that is the transition which is occurring. Richard Hidalgo is a great defensive player who went through this kind of diminished defensive value as his muscle mass increased and his speed declined. It’s just hard to predict whether this is a decline or just an aberrant down season on the fielding side.
BABIP and selling low
I’m not convinced Pence’s BABIP woes are due to bad luck. There is a tendency to write off fluctuations in BABIP from career norms that way; in reality, think things are more complex than that. The fact that Pence is going outside the zone and making so much contact outside the zone this year suggests to me that he is hitting weak groundballs or popping them up instead of making solid contact. His batted ball data supports this as he is hitting more grounders and more infield flies, as I mentioned in the story.
Also, his increased muscle mass slowing him down in right field may also have slowed his time to first base, although I haven’t timed him to check.
There might be a little bad luck involved but I don’t think it is making a significant difference. The past three seasons his BABIP has hovered right around .300. It’s been looking more and more like 2007 was the aberration year for Pence.
You make a valid point about selling low. But then you go and look at things like his ZiPS projection for the rest of the season, which projects him to perform to the tune of .792 OPS for the rest of the year, and you think, what if right around .800 OPS is simply his true talent level? Again, that’s how he’s performed since 2008. Maybe he will have a career year next year or the year after, but maybe not. And if you keep waiting around for that to happen, his value keeps eroding as he gets older, reaches more arbitration milestones, and gets closer to free agency.
On other thing
If he finishes off with a hot August and September, it certainly wouldn’t be selling low. If he lowers his stock more then I agree you pretty much have to hold onto him. But if he gets his OPS back above .800 then I don’t think that’s the case.
I think a .900 OPS in optimistic
.319 OBP this season, and no indication he can improve it above the .350 mark.
25 HR and 90 RBI might sound like a good haul year-on-year, but the sooner we have all-round bats in the middle of the order and Pence is relegated to batting 6 or 7 the better for this ballclub.
Should be a fringe player by season after next.
I totally agree on the bulking up thing. With his speed I was expecting him to be a potential 20 SB threat every year. Maybe Bagwell can work with some of the hitters on the club about baserunning awareness (not something people talk about a lot nowadays).
But at the same time, Pence has spent a lot of time with Brent Berry over the past few seasons, and we know his philosophy with plate discipline. That increase of swings outside the zone could be a factor of him feeling pressure from Berry to be more aggressive. I think it’s too early to put any kind of increased performance on Bagwell but next season could tell a whole lot with Bagwell helping him. If Hunter can reduce those swings outside the zone, then he’d make better contact on balls and easily get back to his skill level.
It's possible
I don’t want to rule it out, but at the same time I wonder how much effect a hitting coach can have on a fundamental thing like pitch recognition. If Pence is still an Astro next season, which I admit is more likely than not, I’ll be watching with interest to see if he improves in that area.
I also have a theory that Miguel Tejada contributed to Hunter’s current state
by Timothy De Block on Aug 8, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
We don’t have the same detailed plate discipline stats for the minor league level. But, for one key indicator, BB%, Pence’s numbers were good in the minors. Pence’s ability to hit for aveage, hit for power, and take walks was one reason that he was such a highly rated prospect. The most discussed negative indicator was his K% in the minors. I think the Astros placed a lot of pressure on Pence (starting in Round Rock and continuing through the majors) to reduce his K rate, and he has been successful in doing that. But it is possible that his concentration on reducing Ks has reduced his walk rate. My point is that Pence’s walk rate in the minors doesn’t really reflect a fundamental problem with pitch recognition.
Impressive report
I don’t enough to challenge it.
TV Guys the past few days posted one of those first part of the season / the current part of the season batting average comparsions for Hunter Pence to highlight he batted poorly the first part (as did virtually everyone else on the team except maybe Bourn and Keppinger (and Wandy and Paulio if they count)) but he is batting over .300 since.
Defensively he’s made some inexplicable errors, but to me anyway a lot of his fielding problems come from playing too far from the right field line.
As far as trading Pence, his main benefit now is leadership . On a young team, he is potentially the star or at least the experienced star. Can he handle that role? WIll the other players accept him in that role?
Pence became a fan favorite by his youthful exuberance, his high energy everything from battng to running to his position. He’s tempured his approach and I’d say his energy profile is typical for a baseball player. For that reason, the fan base probably would accept trading him more than they would have two or three years back.
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Aug 8, 2010 9:28 AM CDT reply actions
I forgot to mention baserunning
Hunter needs to improve his base stealing technique. He should be better at it than this results show. I wonder if Bagwell works with players on baserunning. I think that’s someone else ’s responsibilities but Bagwell was a very good baserunner.
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Aug 8, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Well done
I am about to walk up a mountain and I will spend the entire time mulling Mr. Pence’s long-term fit with our Houston Astros.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
Should you meet a guru at the top, ask him about the Astros future
(and the easiest way down the mountain)
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Aug 8, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
There was no guru
Only Lance Armstrong. He suggested the gondola.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Aug 8, 2010 12:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I read a Tampa Bay Rays blog that mentioned the Rays might have to part with Matt Garza...
A Pence for Garza swap makes sense. The Rays are set to lose Crawford this winter and are contemplating B.J. Upton’s future with the club. They have 6 above average starting pitchers right now. Garza is arbitration eligible this year and with Hellickson providing (probably) the same or great production for the league minimum it would make sense for them to explore trading him.
We have outfield depth and the Rays have SP depth. An outfield of Desmond Jennings, B.J. Upton & Pence is good. A rotation of Myers, Wandy, Garza, Happ & Paulino or Wright or Norris (although he should be moved to the bullpen) looks pretty good. Maybe by mid-season Lyles is our 5th starter. Talk about a nice rotation.
Astros future?
With Roy & Lance gone, there is NOBODY on this team now that ANYONE could say should have a part of the long term future of this team.
Um, right...
…maybe they should just scrap the whole team right now, then. I’m sure Ed Wade is handing out the pink slips right now. It’ll be waiver wire Christmas.
My point is that....
how can you ship off the 2 best players on the team, and then say that Pence or anyone else for that matter, has a long term future on the Astros? That’s absolutely insane…no offense.
by titansfan4ever on Aug 9, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
What is "long-term future" in baseball?
Considering only Wandy remains from the team that sat in the dugout in October 2005, long term future may mean opening day 2011.
I was thinking more or less along the lines of when Astros will compete for the NL Central title (Which I think will be 2012 or 2013)
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Aug 9, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, Joe.....
it sure as hell won’t be anytime soon at this rate (hate to say it, man).
by titansfan4ever on Aug 9, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
It's all about value.
Hunter Pence will be a slightly above average RF for the next 5 years. He will probably never be a superstar (although the potential is there) and he almost definitely will never be terrible.
If someone offered a cost controlled ace, or 5 top 100 prospects, or any other obviously lopsided (in the ’stros favor) deal, you trade him. Otherwise, you keep him. He has value. He is a good #5 hitter. Is he a 3-4 guy? Probably not. But for now, at his current (and projected arb) price(s), he is worth it, and I doubt any team is willing to part with enough to make it worthwhile to trade him.
I think after the recent philosophy shift, the MOST important thing the ‘stros need to focus on is making good decisions regarding free agents (which included extending current players beyond arb years). Between Wallace, Johnson, Castro, Bourn, and Pence, they have a good bottom of the order that is cost controlled and sound defensively for the next 3 years. They need to focus on adding a SS and/or 2B who can hit 2nd or 3rd as well has either hoping Lee rebounds enough to hit cleanup or develop a prospect to replace him. The bullpen and bottom of the rotation is set up the same way with Happ, Paulino, Norris, Myers, Wright, Abad, Gervacio, Lyon, Lindstrom, Lopez, etc all cost controlled. They need to focus on adding an ace and a #2 guy. They should have ~$20M to spend this offseason, so those filling those 4 spots (SS, 2B, Sp1, SP2) for that price will be tricky, but it can be done, especially if the farm can provide 1 or 2 of them (Lyles as SP2? Villan as SS? Cartwright/Altuve at 2B?). If they just keep who they have now and fill those (very important and typically expensive) holes, they’ll be in the mix as soon as 2012.
2012 Roster:
1. Bourn CF
2. Cartwright 2B
3. Free Agent/Trade SS
4. Lee LF
5. Pence RF
6. Johnson 3B
7. Wallace 1B
8. Castro C
Bench: Keppinger, Clemens, Bogusevic, Bourgeois, Q
Rotation: Free Agent/Trade, Lyles, Happ, Myers, Paulino
Bullpen: Wright, Gervacio, Abad, Lopez, Norris, Lyon, Lindstrom
That team is capable of being a winner.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see it
There are just too many question marks and holes. Is it a team technically capable of being a winner (which I guess would mean a winning record)? Sure, if everything works out near perfectly. Is that anywhere close to being a likely outcome? No. Not in 2011, anyway. Ask me again after we see how CJ/Wallace/Castro pan out over the course of the rest of this season and all of next season.
I think we need to look to 2012-13 and ask ourselves whether Pence’s surplus value over cost is worth more than the prospects or younger players we can get back to him. Obviously you don’t trade him if you aren’t getting good enough offers, though.
Also, on more of a quibbling note, I don’t think we’re anywhere close to being able to pencil Albert Cartwright in at second base. He’s an interesting guy to follow but I want to see him hit outside of extremely hitter-friendly environments (check out his home/road splits at Lancaster this year). His strikeout rate is also a concern.
Fair enough. I’ll concede in being hasty adding Cartwright (although he is already in AA and conceivably could be in Houston next september with a good season in CC/RR next year).
RE: Pence, I just can’t imagine a scenario in which a team would offer fair value for him.
I still mildly disagree that Houston can’t be competitive next year. Is it probable? Nah. But is it possible? Yes. What is the probability? No clue. I don’t think EVERYTHING has to go right, just a lot of things. Here is what I would say we “know” about next season:
-Michael Bourn will be an adequate leadoff hitter.
-Hunter Pence will play an above average RF/#5 hitter.
-Jason Castro will be an above average defensive catcher (enough to justify his playing every day).
-Between Myers, Wandy, Paulino/Norris, and Happ, the back of the rotation will be above average.
-The bullpen will be adequate at worst with everyone returning and probably will be deep and a strength of the team.
-Houston will have a significant amount of payroll to play with this offseason.
So the “unknowns” are:
-Will Carlos Lee rebound and be an above average cleanup hitter?
-Are Brett Wallace, Chris Johnson, and Angel Sanchez all good enough to be above average at their position over the long haul?
-Is Keppinger’s “breakout season” a sign of who he really is?
-Can the rotation still be good enough to produce a winner without a true “ace”?
-Can the astros utilize their remaining payroll to fill in whatever gaps are keeping them from being a winning team?
I think if the answer to 3 or more of those questions is “yes”, the astros will be competitive.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
and that’s what scares me about all this freed up money. How will Ed Wade spend it.
by Timothy De Block on Aug 9, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont believe that
either Altuve or Cartwright are going to be near ready to play at the ML level until at least 2012. Don’t get me wrong, I like both guys they just need that little extra seasoning in the minors. Kepp has been the one strong point offensively this whole season. He is perfect as a stop gap until either of the aforementioned are ready and even then the guy becomes a very strong utility IF that play every IF position.
As far as adding pitching, the only way we add a SP is if they come at roughly the same value as Brett Myers did this off season. A quality #1 SP is most likely not going to go to a franchise that is the middle of rebuilding process (yes Drayton it IS rebuilding). We have a lot of good young pitching on the way to Houston so I would shocked to see Wade lock up a #1 SP with a big contract after position the franchise was and is is still in with Berkman, Oswalt and Lee.
I agree that adding an ace would more likely come from a deadline trade than free agency. There just aren’t any ace-caliber prospects that are near ready in the system. Lyles is much more likely to be a #2 or #3 guy. Some of the lower level guys may end up as aces (Folty/Velasquez,etc.) but they don’t factor in to any 3 year contention plan.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Houston become buyers at next year’s deadline if they are near contention. The team will be mediocre next year but there’s no reason to think they couldn’t do what the Padres are doing this year. The team should solid/adequate from top to bottom; it just lacks the superstar players to take it from also-ran to contender. This is a much better problem than what the franchise was facing 2 months ago (a few fringe superstars, but little to no depth and no longer term positives).
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Another option would be signing one of the high-risk/high reward free agents this offseason (like Brandon Webb).
I could see a Zack Greinke for Norris, Bushue, Shuck, Telvin Nash, and Jiovanni Mier trade. And/or a Hanley Ramirez for Jay Austin, Villan, Arcenio Leon, Folty, and Kvasnicka.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Sub Gaston and Lo for Folty and Kvasnicka (since they couldn't be traded till June next year)
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
If you do that you begin
to deplete the farm system that you just started to restock. It really wouldn’t make any sense to do that. The Stros will be average at best next season. Lee will most likely not return to the form of previous years but you either keep him and play him or cut him and eat the money. since the latter is not likely to happen the team is stuck with Lee and therefore must play his waaaaaaaaay overpaid posterior or have MLB’s highest paid bench warmer.
I say there is no way Wade trades any of those players (especially the pitchers and recent draftees) that you have mentioned. Their upsides and potential are too great to just let go of. You have to remember that these guys are going to be cheap and under team control for many years to come.
Let's not trade any prospects please
Unless we are getting better prospects in return, or the prospects we’re trading are logjammed for the indefinite future and are already wasting away at AAA.
Especially for deals like that. Yuck. Haven’t we learned how much of a bad idea those kinds of trades are by now?
Not to mention Hanley isn’t available, and Greinke will be departing for free agency at the start of the first year we have a legitimate shot at contention (2013).
We are not anywhere close to being ready to become buyers. And, in fact, I’m skeptical of the value of becoming a buyer at all—I prefer mutually beneficial trades, or trades to obtain prospects.
Calm down everybody, obviously I’m not proposing Houston start gunning for “win now”, and of course it was probably foolish for me to get that specific. I’m just trying to make the argument that turnarounds may not take as long as everyone is saying. The level of parity in MLB is such that worst to first happens. With the year-to-year fluctuations in performance along with roster turnover, it’s my argument that any team, including the astros is always just one very good offseason away from being a winner.
Two final points:
1.) Would anyone disagree that Houston is on track to having several AA/AAA OF prospects blocked beginning next season?
2.) If Houston is in 1st place next year at the trade deadline, everyone is injury free, and everyone is playing excellent baseball except Bud Norris and Angel Sanchez, you’re telling me you would be angry about a trade adding an ace starter or an All-star SS under control for multiple years, even if it costs 2-3 of our top 10 prospects?
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, I'd be opposed to it
I want to build sustained, long-term success, and to do that we need a cheap, productive core of young players. If we blow up that young core for (to take your Greinke example, since he’s on the market) a year and a half rental on a guy heading into free agency, we could easily set ourselves right back to where we started.
In addition to that, even if everybody is playing well and we’re right in the thick of things at the trade deadline, I won’t buy that it’s our true talent level. We’re just not that good—not yet. I would think we were playing over our heads and even if we added a significant piece would not be the kind of surefire contenders I’d want to be to sell top prospects.
Beyond all of the above, I tend to object to trading away top prospects at all. A mid-market team like ours ought to look to the Rays or the Rockies as a model for how to run a franchise. You build a cheap, productive core using your own farm system. You don’t buy championships, you develop your way to them. You have a little payroll flexibility to fill holes with minor free agent signings, and to lock up your best players when they get closer to free agency, so you’re not perpetually in sell mode like a small market team. But to build sustained success you must have a farm-first mentality.
All I can say, SnakeDiggity, is that my view of it would depend on who the Astros are getting and what the Astros get in return. Most likely these kind of trades are beneficial if the Astros place a lower value on one of their prospects than another team does. And that doesn’t happen all that often. Usually teams tend to place higher values on their own prospects than other teams do, whether due to pride or familarity. The Astros have a lot of “blocked” outfielders right now, and I wouldn’t object to trading some of them, but none of them currently have the status which would persuade a lot of other teams to give up a good ML player.
Agreed.
That brings it back to the headline of my initial comment: it’s all about value. The GM should make any move that gives the organization an advantage over the other teams in the league. Philisophically, I doubt anyone would argue against that. The argument, I guess, is what’s “probable”.
To respond ot OremLK’s last comment, I’d say my arguement is that the “cheap, productive core of young players” includes the players currently on the big league roster (plus Lyles), not Shuck, Austin, Villan, Gaston, etc.
I’m firm in the opinion that any season you are in 1st place at the deadline, you MUST capitalize and do what you can to improve your chances of making the playoffs. There are too many unknowns not to.
I would also say that I agree with Orem that, yes, you do develop your way to championships, but that buying at the deadline can supplement that effort. Look at the Phillies.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Phillies are probably a bad example for your case. As Orem mentioned you’d be depleting your farm system, which is essentially what the Phillies have done. Heck they traded away Cliff Lee to get prospects back, and now those prospects are under performing and they just traded more prospects away for Oswalt.
by Timothy De Block on Aug 9, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
The Phillies won the World Series
in part by adding at the deadline.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 10, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
What cheap, productive core at the big league level?
Most of the team is a big question mark, Snake Diggity. There are a handful of players who have the upside to maybe if we get lucky top out around 4 wins in an average season, like the three rookies, Wallace, CJ, and Castro. But we have no way of knowing whether they will reach that potential, and certainly can’t bank on it.
Our starting shortstop and second baseman are realistically utility players on a contending team. Our left fielder has fallen off a cliff and we have no way of knowing whether he’ll ever climb back up it before he finally departs. Our center fielder and leadoff hitter has regressed back to below average offensive production, and appears to be only a platoon hitter at this point (at least his defense and baserunning allow him to remain a little above average overall). Our young franchise right fielder will be lucky to top 2 wins this season.
The “young core” of our starting rotation includes a likely no. 4 starter (Happ) and an injured high upside guy in Paulino. Norris is probably in the bullpen in the long run. Lyles should be a good pitcher, but at this point he looks more like a no. 2-3 starter than an ace, and like all of the above young players, probably tops out around 4 wins in an average season.
A team like the Phillies isn’t riddled with holes like that, and they actually do have franchise players that they built around in Chase Utley (one of the best players in baseball) and Ryan Howard, among others.
I’m not trying to be depressing, I’m just trying to illustrate why we are not anywhere close to being buyers even if we perform well in a small sample size during the first half of next season. We need players like Villar (that’s his name, by the way, not Villan), Mier, Austin, Folty, Nash, and others to build that actual young core you’re suggesting we have, but we in fact do not yet.
I guess we'll see.
We have some fundamental disagreements on:
-The quality of the players currently on the roster. (You can say we don’t have a young core, but that’s an opinion. I think Pence, Bourn, Johnson, Wallace, and Castro ARE indeed a young core.)
-The ability of management to improve the team in the next 2 offseasons.
-The meaning of 1/2 a season and the value of being in contention near the deadline.
Basically, I think this team is 1 superstar pitcher and 1 superstar hitting SS away from contending, while you think we are still light years away. Only time will tell.
by Snake Diggity on Aug 10, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions

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