Lance Berkman Traded To Yankees, Astros Receive Prospects
by OremLK on Jul 30, 2010 10:03 PM CDT
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In a move which came as only mildly surprising today, the Astros have reportedly traded franchise first baseman Lance Berkman and $4M in cash considerations to the New York Yankees for prospects. Due to a clause in the MLB collective bargaining agreement, the trade cannot become official until tomorrow, but it seems to be a done deal aside from that technicality.
On an emotional level, this hits a lot harder than losing Roy did. I think many of us had soured on Roy a little following his demand for a trade, then all his demands regarding a trade, plus some of the other things he'd said and done in the last year or two. Lance, though, has always been a class act, willing to talk to the media and the fans, an all-around friendly guy who is refreshingly honest and refreshingly himself, all the time.
He only confirmed his class today when he said that Houston--the city and the Astros organization--is his home, and unlike Oswalt's opposite demand, he would only accept a trade if the team trading for him agreed not to exercise his option, so that he would have a chance to come back and finish out his career in Houston.
Beyond all of that, he was, and still may be, a damn fine player, one of the best in the history of the franchise. He will be missed.
But I'm getting off-track. As much as I'll miss the Big Puma, let's talk about the prospects. What are we getting back in trade?
The prospects sent to the Astros are rumored in an unconfirmed report by Joel Sherman to be 21-year old low class A infielder Jimmy Paredes and 25-year old class AAA relief pitcher Mark Melancon. That may be all which is coming back in the deal, or there may be more or different players involved; we saw rumors tonight about other prospects, such as infielder Kevin Russo and starting pitchers Ivan Nova and Zach McAllister. But for now, we'll assume the return is Melancon and Paredes and run with that.
Neither of them are spectacular prospects. Paredes because he's raw and hasn't performed up to his potential yet, and Melancon because he's only a relief pitcher, although he is a good one. But they aren't bad, and they do improve the organization, which aside from our emotional attachment to Berkman, isn't too bad a return for a two month rental of a declining first baseman.
Mark Melancon, RHP (AAA)
According to a scouting report by River Avenue Blues, Melancon has a good fastball sitting 92-94mph and touching the high 90s. He also features a plus 12-6 hammer curve and a changeup, both of which are described as plus, strikeout pitches. This is closer-type stuff, and going by the scouting reports, Melancon could easily slot into the back end of the bullpen.
His delivery is high-effort and his mechanics aren't great, which resulted in Tommy John surgery a few years back. He came back in 2008 and didn't miss a step; his stats agree with his scouting reports. Melancon strikes out a lot of batters. Until this season, he didn't walk many either, resulting in a sparkling K/BB ratio over his career. His walk rate has skyrocketed this year, but with relievers, you never know how much is random variation due to small sample sizes. It is worrying that his walk rate climbed as much as it did, though, because loss of command can sometimes be a sign of injury.
John Sickels called him the Yankees' sixth best prospect prior to this season and praised his stats and stuff, grading him as a borderline grade B- prospect. He is major league ready now and will likely be called up to contribute to the Astros' bullpen immediately. It's possible his addition could result in a trade of Brandon Lyon or Matt Lindstrom, if not right away, then in the next couple years, depending on how he performs.
Jimmy Paredes, 2B (A)
Because I'm not very high on relief pitchers as a rule, I see Paredes as the jewel of this deal, which may or may not be how Ed Wade and the Astros front office feel. Paredes has very high upside as either a second or third baseman with plus defense, speed, and power potential. If you looked at his stats, you would think he was a slap-hitting speedster, but as we see in a scouting report by Yankees Daily, scouts don't feel that's the case. He has a frame built for power, and as he matures and gains strength, it is felt that he will grow into above average pop.
It is also believed that he will hit for average as he matures, as his career 15.8% strikeout rate indicates. He's striking out more this year, at an 18.8% clip, but it's still within a reasonable range assuming he grows into the power he's projected for.
Then you look at his steals and see that he has stolen 36 bases in 46 tries this season. Combine power potential, contact ability, and speed, and you'd think he might be a future all-star, right?
Problem is, he hasn't actually performed that well in the minor leagues. Part of this is because his power hasn't emerged yet. Although his slugging percentage has trended upward, he's never had a season above .410 SLG. Granted, he's playing in a pitcher-friendly league this season, making him a prime breakout candidate for next year, but you still want to see results, not just projection.
He also doesn't walk, having serious flaws with his plate discipline. He is reportedly too willing to expand the strike zone, and his career walk rate, a cringe-worthy 3.7%, severely damages his on-base percentage.
Beyond that, although he has the clear potential for plus defense with great range, arm, hands, and first step, his defensive footwork reportedly needs some work.
Finally, he's 21 years old in low A. That's not too old for his level, contrary to what some have said. But it's at the borderline, and he needs to move up to the next level sooner rather than later, preferably right away. I wouldn't be surprised if the Astros promoted him to Lancaster immediately.
So while he has great potential, his results are certainly lackluster, and he has some areas which definitely need improvement. Couple that with the fact that this isn't a particularly young prospect, and there are some real questions about whether he will ever perform up to his potential. With his tools, he could eventually be an above average third baseman or all-star second baseman, but will he ever get there? At the very least, he adds some high ceiling depth to an area of need in the minor leagues, and he should be interesting to follow as he progresses up the levels.
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Guess our MiLB
coaches have their work cut out for them. Wade like this kid so the coaches need to work some magic. Could be case of NYY lower level coaches not providing enough or decent help. Only time will tell.
I am sad
But it’s time. Like Orem said above, my love for Lance only grows in his departure just based on the way he handled the news.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Lance will always be an Astro
but hi better days are WAY behind him. Hope he gets his ring and comes home to help groom Wallace.
Not sad at all since Berkman is just going on loan. I have no doubt he’ll be back, and in the end, we lost Berkman for a few months and get two promising prospects for our trouble. I like it, especially considering it was looking like he was gonna walk with no compensation after this year if he wasn’t traded. Of course, if we don’t re-sign him this offseason, it will hit me like a ton of bricks. I love Lance as a player and as a person, and I think I’m using the hope that he’ll come back to cope.
If he doesn’t come back, then the Astros clearly didn’t plan to re-sign him after the season anyway, so we didn’t lose much in that case either.
A better way to look at this is whether the Astros could have gotten more in return for Berkman + $4M. I don’t know whether they could have. He’s having a very bad season and is at an age where many GMs will be skeptical he can improve. I’m willing to believe this is the best they can do. And I also want to see official word on the prospects tomorrow because a lot of other players were scratched from lineups tonight and we had rumors some might be included. If we get one or two more prospects in this deal it suddenly looks like a pretty big win for the Astros IMO.
SAD is an understatement!!!!!
Who did we NEED to get rid of?…..Lee & Moehler……Who DID we get rid of?…..Oswalt & Berkman……Typical Astro BS!!! Roy was like…OK, we can hardly afford to lose an ace starter (but since we have soooooo many of them) but since he wants to go….OK….But, when you ship off the “face of the team”…that’s BS!!!! But, then again, the Astros & I have always had a “love-hate” relationship……I hate it that I love them…..and today….I REALLY HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Lee and Moehler? You do realize that both teams have to approve of a trade for it to go through, right?
by seanbergmanrules on Jul 31, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
How accurate and well thought of are the scouting reports of Baseball Cube?
Paredes’ scores are: Power: 45 Batting: 80 Speed: 82 Contact: 90 Patience: 14
Melancon’s scores are: Control: 78 K-Rating: 77 Efficiency: 90 vsPower: 81. Not bad at all.
I say trade everyone of our friggin losers at this point.
Pence, Bourn….trade em all…what’s the diff at this point.
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Obviously I love that Berkman is wanting to return to Houston after the season ends and I want him to win a ring. But, I have one issue with his comments about returning. If Berkman qualifies as a Type A FA and the Yanks know just how bad he wants to return to Houston, they’ll simply offer arbitration knowing he’ll decline. Obviously 1st round pick is protected since we’ll likely be a top 5 pick, but that takes away our 2nd round pick.
I posted this in today's game thread but it fits better here
Berkman’s last six at bats with the Astros (not in order)
3 walks
a single
a double
a grand slam homerun
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 30, 2010 10:31 PM CDT reply actions
I was thinking about that today
And it brought a smile to my face.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...it brought tears to my face....
I hope he goes on a tear in NY…and if we play them again…I hope he KILLS us!!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
The only way we’ll play the Yankees is if we make it to the World Series, and I have a hunch that might not happen this year. Berkman’s option isn’t getting picked up and he’ll be a free agent this offseason. He seems to have every intention of returning. It’s like letting a buddy borrow a DVD.
This year????
Hell, it’s not gonna happen at all if this crap continues!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
This package
Like the Oswalt package is definitely underwhelming. But Wade had two options- get nothing for them, or take what the market would give them. Berkman obviously declined a trade to the White Sox that could have been better and Wade allegedly didn’t shop Oswalt everywhere yesterday with the $11 million offer. But for all we know, Oswalt said that it was Philly or bust for him after talking to Brad Lidge and that was that.
I think made the right call. It is a tought call to make given that he was backed into a corner with their contract situations, but I am of the mindset—right now—that Wade took lemons and made some mediocre lemonade.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 10:52 PM CDT reply actions
Did I read this right
We are also sending $4 million to the Yankees?
I read it as we're giving them $2 million for 2010
And the $2 million to buy out his option since he won’t let the Yankees exercise it. Think of it as Drayton’s last attempt to stay truly loyal to his franchise players.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
This just hit me while
getting a drink. Has anyone noticed what has happened to the Astros within the past month or so? Sean Berry fired. Who is hired? A soon to be HOF 1B who could hit for avg.,power, and had great plate discipline. The current great hitting 1B who was slumping all season began to slowly turn things around. Then we trade for younger 1B prospect who is eerily similar (in a good way though) to the new hitting coach in not only his approach at the plate (other than walks) as well as build? We then turn around and current 1B. Now the thought may be that the newly acquired 1B prospect who resembles the soon to be HOF hitting coach in many ways to learn under the direct tutelage of said soon to be HOFer. Was this all designed by Ed Wade or is it coincidence or is divine intervention.
Just me thinking. Oh well.
That's some LOST-esque conspiracy
I like it.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I do understand that Lance’s value is down, but based on what we are getting back, why trade him at all?
Bc he left via FA we would get jack squat. We at least got future 1B and some promising young guys w/ upside.
Really?
What future 1B did we get for him? Granted, we do not know who the Yankees are giving up, but based on this article, there is not much upside.
WOW!! Toolsy prospects.....OOOOOHHHHHHH
I’m all tingly with excitement!!!!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
There is ridiculous upside in Paredes; the problem with his value is not his ceiling, the problem is that his floor is incredibly low due to his poor pitch recognition and crappy approach at the plate. If he can ever figure that out, he has the tools to be an all-star type player.
Melancon also clearly has the stuff to be a closer. Depending on what you think of the value of closers, that’s upside too.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, including me
But apparently the sports writers don’t agree – calling them non-prospect minor leaguers. But I do understand that is only their opinion also. As far as disappointment, “it ain,t nothing but a thing”. I’ve seen better, I’ve seen worse – tomorrow comes and I still root for the Astros.
The sportswriters you’re talking about are purveyors in rumor and soundbites. They are not scouts or prospect analysts and only know about the minor leagues what they skim over in Baseball America’s top 100 prospect list before the season starts.
So are any of us scouts or prospect analysts?
I seriously doubt all of them make up their own comments. Most likely they get their information from people that know more, at least the reporters I have known have that type of integrity, but I will allow that these national guys may not.
If you're tempted to be disappointed about this deal
You might think on this. Lance Berkman is projected to produce about 1-2 wins for the rest of the season. He is being paid $7M plus a $2M buyout for his option next year. That’s $9M, which is right on the money for the upper end of that range (2 wins).
In other words, he has no surplus value, and may even have negative value compared to his contract.
To get any prospects at all, the Astros had to send money. Nobody would both take on his salary and give up anything at all for him.
Sending over $4M gets us back a MLB-ready B-/C+ prospect and a grade C prospect with a very high ceiling, which is actually a solid return in straight value.
Now, we also haven’t seen official word on this deal. It’s entirely possible that the reports are inaccurate or incomplete. If the Astros happen to get more tomorrow, which I still consider possible (though unlikely), this turns into a clear win for Houston in my opinion.
I think it's the right package
Based on the way it was discussed during the broadcast and the fact that no one else has come up with any other package.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 30, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
No offense meant
But are you by chance a used car salesman?
Non taken- if you called me lawyer then it's on lol.
No just trying to look at the silver lining in these trades. Got what we could for aging players who are on the downside of their careers.
There are a lot of lawyers and soon-to-be lawyers on this site, so watch what you write or you might find a libel suit on your hands ;)
Many years ago, a junior partner in a firm was sent to a far-away state to represent a long-term client accused of robbery.
After days of trial, the case was won, the client acquitted and released.
Excited about his success, the attorney telegraphed the firm: “Justice prevailed”.
The senior partner replied in haste: “Appeal immediately”.
by Aging Dominican on Jul 31, 2010 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Then they need to sue the Astros.....
for being MORONS!!!!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
True story
There are a disproportionate amount of us.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
You can count me amongst your ranks (2L).
by Aging Dominican on Jul 31, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Go figure
on MLB homepage headline section they dont even mention Happ’s performance but mention Roy’s loss in debut.
My thought on how everything the Berkman & Oswalt trades played out...
I really think Wade & company were set on getting Jonathan Singleton and that is why they were more inclined to deal with Philadelphia. * According to sources some teams didn’t know the Astros were willing to kick in $11 M*. After the Phillies balked at including Singleton the Astros had less time and less teams that were interested. Luckily Wade had a plan B which included the flip trade for Wallace and in turn meant he had to trade Berkman.
If we had gotten Singleton like he wanted then I believe Berkman would have played out the rest of the year (and maybe even next year) because Singleton will still be in the minors for at least 2 more years. But since he got Wallace (and he’s MLB ready) it only makes sense to get what you can for Berkman since Wallace will be our 1st baseman in 2011.
I’m not sure which one I prefer. I’d like to have the higher upside player and not trade Berkman but I also like having a higher floor player and starting our rebuilding sooner.
Melancon is a solid pitcher
If you guys handle him right, he’ll be effective. The Yankees played the call up send down game, in which they called him up randomly and didn’t reward him for success. Instead, they just threw him down in AAA and never really gave him his real chance. He should benefit from the trade
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Finally someone who saw the young man pitch and knows about him. Thank you for the insight and hopefully yous guys treat Lance good and get him his ring.
Any questions about him?
Seems like Lance really liked Houston and really wanted to either stay or go to New York, it’s good to get a much needed veteran for the Yankees and you guys got a great guy in Melancon.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Any thoughts or information on Melancon's rise in walk rate?
Trying to analyze anything in this sample size is a crapshoot, but I’m a little concerned about it, given his injury history.
He doesn't have a history of it
If I had to guess, he’s trying way too hard. He keeps getting tastes at the big leagues and then getting sent right back down and maybe he’s trying to make a real impression by going all out, a bit too much. Other than that, it could be the absolute opposite and he gave up his control
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Is mph close
to report? or is it off from surgery while back? Know some guys it takes 1-2 yrs to come back others never get it back.
I don't know if you guys will get this
Every once in a while he’ll get pumped and just throw absolute heat. Outside of that he throws not as well as he used to, but still well enough to get guys out. He’s about at where reported, I’m making him sound like a headcase, he just wasn’t a fit for New York, many aren’t
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Someone here said his dad was a NYY fan. So maybe doing it for that reason plus chance at a ring. Having seen him what is his control like? Close to scouting reports?
From what I remember
He didn’t walk anyone in his 2 appearance this year. Last year was 10 k’s 10 walks. I really think a change of scenery will work for him, as it could be mental. Guy’s getting old for a prospect, but lots of potential. Was once dubbed Mo’s successor by Yankees fans
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Yea
I noticed that you mention trading for a 2nd baseman, and he goes on a tear. In fact he must be a prophet – he started ten days ago.
Dont know but between him and Altuve we might be in good shape at 2B for a while plus guys in trades.
If I recall right
And at my age that is a big if – he started out on an absolute tear last year and then got injured. When he came back, he never seemed able to get back on track. But I do agree it makes 2B look pretty good along with Altuve (who is my favorite).
Oh and before I leave for the night
Let me say in a completely unrelated sidenote that the Gose for Wallace swap was utter genius
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Fan friendly?
I don’t think Berkman was all that friendly or willing to talk to the fans. When I watched the Astros in Kissimmee during spring training a few years ago Lance was one of the only stars to not sign. Lee, Tejada, and Pence all took some time for the fans but Berkman hardly acknowledged us. When he came out of the game in the 5th inning he rode out with the grounds crew so he didn’t have to walk past autograph corner.
It wasn’t all roses and sunshine with Berkman.
Nobody is perfect and not everybody is gonna like everything you do in life. Sorry you bad experience bc every time I saw him when I lived in Houston he would always sign and talk to fans. maybe it was just a bad day for him
Yup
Nobody is going to want to go out and sign autographs every game. This may be cliche, but sometimes we forget these guys are humans, and thus are susceptible to a crappy day just like any of us. I like many fans always thought Puma was a likable stand up guy with a big heart, he will be sorely missed.
by Aging Dominican on Jul 31, 2010 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions
One guy who was really a D**K was a certain extremely tall LHP. Nasty attitude. HAve that from personal experience and from former MLB pitching coach.
Some are more fan friendly than others.
Don’t have personal experience with current astros, since I left many years ago and have not been able to return to the great state of Texas (yet). But I can tell you that Eddie Matthews became my favorite when he autographed a ball for me when I was a young whipper-snapper. (Am I showing my age?). The worst I ever saw was Mike Mussina, he was a real dork.
Did you just refer to Lee, Tejada & Pence stars????
What a JOKE!!!!!!!!
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
So going forward
Will Brett Wallace be brought right up or do we have to suffer through a period of Feliz/someone else?
Need a fantasy fix? Come visit http://www.fantasycafe.com/ for all your basketball, baseball and football needs!
I’m guessing the answer to my question is likely no, but I’ll ask anyway.
Any way the Astros call up Clemens to see how he will do?
by PeteyNhtown on Jul 31, 2010 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Is Chris Shelton completely out of the picture?
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 31, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
So basically...
We just got crap for Lance freakin Berkman. I gotta believe we couldve got better than this. This is just SAD. Trade Myers and actually get something of value.
We shoulda just held onto Lance man…
I hope we did...
But we have to remember that prospects most often dont pan out. Players like Berkman and Oswalt dont come around very often at all. The Royals and Pirates have been Sucktown, USA for a LOOOONG time becasue they never got a real ace, or a real Superstar hitting, on base machine. And thats what Berkman is, and we get a “meh” releiver (Although if we do try him out a SP, thatll be good) and ANOTHER speedy, toolsy (hasnt lived up to potential) not even on the 30 top prospects list 21 year old in low A for Lance. And just watch, this tear hes on will continue… hell, Ill root for him even in a Yankees uniform.
I just have one question for you
And I don’t mean to be snarky or rude.
Why on earth would you think the Astros could possibly contend while Roy Oswalt and Lance Berkman remained useful players, let alone elite ones?
Don’t get me wrong, this definitely hurts. But the team couldn’t get better until they admitted they need a new young core of players and decided to rebuild.
Same here Orem. As much as hat to see both Roy and Lance leave it was time. Especially in the case of Lance. He had no protection in out lineup and has the worst avg. in his long career. Heck he only has what 13 or 14 homers on the year. Lance’s skills are diminishing and even he knows his time is limited. Thats why he and Roy both let the club know they were open to trades (albeit Roy asked to be traded). They know that window to to get ring is closing rapidly and the Astros arent anywhere near competing even for a wild card berth anytime soon.
I don't think there is anyone fooling themselves into thinking we are contenders.
But the way i see it – the Phillies significantly increased their chance of reaching the World Series. Roy will probably be a central reason that they get there. That means big revenue for the Phillies – so they get significant return. We get a back of the rotation starter (and by the way, if the Phillies thought he was all that do you think they would have treded him?), their 5th ranked prospect which Sickels rates a C+, and a SS that does not rank in the top 20, but Sickels rates a C. Most everything I read on both of these guys included major risks. Forget for a minute that Ed Wade was able to turn Gose into Wallace (Which I think was a coup). So yes, many fans feel cheated. I do. And no offense, you can pee on my leg and tell me it is raining, but you won’t change my mind. On the other hand – the chronicle is running a poll on the Oswalt trade, and it pretty much split on whether we got enough in return. So everybody gets their opinion. Period. It is our right to express them – even if you don’t agree.
We all agree everyone can express their opinion. Thats generally what is spoke is opinion.
My question is why are you now turning into a financial win for the Phillies? The Phillies have been selling out their games all season basically. Roy might put a few butts in the seats but they were doing that without him.
I know alot of folks here are using their hearts in evaluating these trades rathe than maybe looking at the overall picture. Like I said I lived in Houston when both of them cam up. I really liked them both a lot as players. But they are now where near what they were 8 years ago or five when they to the WS.
A team gets significant income from a playoff appearance,
that they probably would not see without Oswalt. Granted there is no guarantee they see it with him. I am not using my heart, I just don’t rank the return as highly as you, thats all. I agree that Berkman has dropped, but Roy was having an excellent year – at least until the last couple of starts – and we have beaten him value to death in previous posts without agreement, so I will stop here.
Believe I wanted Singleton or Cosart myself but obviuosly Phillies balked so Wade got what he could for Roy and then the same for Lance.
I am not an Ed hater. I believe he got the absolute best he could – but it does not mean we got sufficient return. Let’s face it, the Wolf, Hawkins, and Wallace trades were absolute scalpings. I am not debating it was the best he could get – I have no clue, but I believe he is acting in the best interests of the Astros. But again, it is a difference in the view of the return. He was not forced to make a trade. By the way, the problem I have with the Berkman trade is not the return, he has been declining for two years, cannot expect much. But having to pay $4 million to get nothing in return (MY OPINION) is like pouring salt on an open wound.
I agree with you on Wade. I like what he did in Philly. Amaro messed it up now. lol
As far as Wade being forced to make a trade, he kind of was in a way. Roy asked for a trade and the team continued to founder. It left Wade and Drayton in a bit of a pickle. Do they keep Roy and PO not only Roy, for keeping him on a losing team, or do they PO the fans who know they can get something in return for Roy in a trade?
So in a way he was forced to trade Roy and then was forced to trade Lance after the way the Roy trade went.
Why hang on and pay $15 mil for team option on a player is declining rapidly. We got young talent for aging player on a 6 month loan. I say good deal for Stros. They save money for off season acquisitions if needed and get more talent in the system.
I understand your thinking, but
we are under no obligation to pick up his option, I think from everything that has been said, it would be bought out. As far as the prospects – I hear all of the “upside” talk. But in reality, the Yankees are looking for bullpen help, and did not seem thrilled with Melacon, so why should we? And a 2nd baseman that is not even in their top 30 prospects suddenly becomes “high upside” as an Astro? Maybe, just maybe, we are looking through rose colored glasses.
(And if you disagree with me, I will spread the word that you are being considered for a position in President Obama’ s administration, you politician)
Paredes has tools offensively and can be a dynamic player. He ranked 14th among New York-Penn League prospects last season thanks mostly to his solid line-drive stroke from both sides of the plate and above-average speed. Some scouts also expect Paredes to develop power as he gets stronger, takes advantage of the leverage in his swing and learns the strike zone.
Interestingly, they do note that he has a below average arm; other reports I read suggested it was a plus. I don’t know if that’s because of his injury or what. But apparently he’s definitely a 2B long run, which is fine, because that’s where his bat plays best.
Maybe you ought to give Melancon a few games before you write him off. The Yankees aren’t exactly the easiest organization to be in for a prospect, especially a pitching prospect.
I haven't written anybody off
But that does not mean that I have to believe that they are the greatest things since sliced bread either.
I dont think anyone of us have said that. They just have high upside to them. It’s boom or bust on these types of guys. It just seems youre writing them off before you even give them a chance. These guys as well as Happ have had injuries and are coming back. Heck, Melancon kept getting bounced back and forth between AAA and NYY. Never got settled in may have been pressing some trying to stick around. the NYY arent exactly a pitcher friendly ball club either.
Your putting too much emphasis on prospect rankings. Your not gonna swap Desmond Jennings for Jamie Moyer for example. This is simialr to what the Stros where forced to deal with Roy and Lance. Your not gonna get a top ten talent for an aging player with diminishing skills on all levels.
Waht the older player did ten years before does not carry over to the current year. You take what you can get at this point in time. Wade did just that in these two trades. He a toolsy OF (which we already have plenty of in the system) and flipped him for ML ready blue chip prospect, ML ready pitcher (who looked pretty good tonight btw), a ML ready RP, and a couple of young toolsy players with upside who bolster the talent level in our depleted farm system. If any of these young guys become the Roy or Lance, or Baggy, or even Hamley Ramirez, then Wade will have fleeced the team he traded with. These trades help keep us somewhat competitive now, while looking towards the future.
I definitely see what you and Orem are saying, I do. But, could we drove a harder bargain? I want the best for Lance and Roy, but like you said Id like to get the NEXT Lance or Roy in a trade. With the way things are these days, I guess you cant. Teams overvalue prospects now. The last one that netted any real value was the Texeria trade, atleast that I can remember. Maybe the HAren trade too. My point is, IF the Yanks win ANOTHER WS ring from this, we shouldve made them part with Montero or BRackman or one of their top 5 guys. Unrealistic I know, its just this one hurts. It was unexpected.
The point is
if the return is not sufficient – don’t make the deal. Oswalt asked for a trade, but if if significantly favors the Phillies, don’t trade. If Wade really wants Singleton, and he is untouchable – don’t trade. If the return is sufficient – okay. If the other team does not think Oswalt is worth it – don’t trade. As far as listening to much to prospect rankings – that is my best source of info on them. What should I listen to? The problem here is expectations — if I thought Villar was a top prospect, and Wallace was a blue chip prospect, and Happ was a number 3, then I would be happy. But I do not. The fact that you do is okay, not a problem. I am not trying to change your mind, I am expressing how I view it, nothing more.
My thinking is this: They went after Singleton and got shot down. They went to plan and got next best thing, Wallace. You should actually be mad at Philly for strong arming Wade and forcing to go after Wallace. If we had gotten Singleton, Lance would still be here allowing Singleton to mature in the minors. We went and got Wallace and then had to ship Lance out bc Wallace is pretty much ready right now.
HAte the Phillies not the young kids.
One last thing before I go to bed:
I have always been, and will always be an Astros fan. I may not like the return, I may not like a free agent signing, I may not like the draft choices, but I will always root for the Astros. AND I hope Happ wins 30 games for us next year – Wallace has such a great career, that Pujols looks like a AAAA player in comparison – Villar hits .300, with 30 homers and 50 steals per year, and is selected as a perennial all-star along with his 2nd base partner, Paredes, who hits even better – and finally Melacon becomes the all time best closer and is sent to the HOF on his first ballot. But I also realize none of that will happen. But I do think the Astros are on the right path – I just wanted these trades to put us a little farther along than they seem to.
So if the return is underwhelming
Your preference is for Wade to do nothing, continue to hold onto guys who cost a lot of money and aren’t doing anything for a languishing team? Something is better than nothing and that’s exactly what would have happened if they weren’t traded.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Obviously you disagree, but yes.
If the trade does not benefit both parties equally, the losing party should not trade. I believe you brought this up as economics 101. Something is not better than nothing when nothing is not the only option. The Astros could have waited and tried again in the off season. In fact, there was still a little time left before the deadline, albeit not much. Waiting may have bothered Roy, but I suspect he would understand if the Astros were not getting equal return. Many people are referring to him negatively, but not once did he criticize the organization. So I don’t hold anything against him – I think he acted professionally. BTW, good luck in law school.
Point taken
RE: Waiting until the 11th hour. He also requested ample time to consider any deal, which could have weighed in on the deal.
As far as trade benefitting equally, I don’t think we didn’t. You keep measuring this trade in terms of Oswalt’s theoretical value in a perfect trade, but his value to the Astros was rapidly declining- he cost a lot, and we get nothing out him pitching well. It was either bite the bullet now or hope for a better return in the offseason. But given the domino effect Oswalt’s trade has set in motion, I don’t know that waiting is the better move.
From my perspective, holding Oswalt just because the return wasn’t the greatest return possible would not have been a good call. The only real question I have is what we could have gotten if Wade would have hustled the market a little bit more. We also don’t know exactly what offers he heard/made to what teams, and given that Berkman was likely already planned, Wade was running out of time.
I don’t want this to come of as praising Wade for anything he has done. But given all the constraints, I don’t know how much we could expect.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
hey folks
Reds fan here. just wanted to reach out a warm hand of sympathy on this dark, dark day. personally, ive always really hated Lance. he kills the Reds like no other. but i do realize how great a guy he is and how beloved he is to the Astros’ faithful. it’s gotta be tough to say goodbye to an icon like that.
you can hope that he comes back to Houston next season on a sweetheart free agent deal and his jaunt in NY will be nothing but a blip in his fine, illustrious Astros career. i wont be hoping for that, though :)
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 31, 2010 12:37 AM CDT reply actions
Classy
Thanks man. Lance is my favorite. Really sucks. But IPA helps..
Hey! Give us Frazier or Wood for Myers??? We should be trading him—- UUUGH…
now, Myers i hate
and not because of his baseball exploits. that dude is a dirty son of a bitch. good luck with that extension!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 31, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
why do i get a malware warning when I come to this site?
Doesn’t shedding payroll increase the likelihood of signing Deshields and what’s his name? Unsignable-Jones? Not to mention losing Berkman and Oswalt increases the chances of landing Rendon.
Thank god Puma went to the Yankees and not the White Sox. He’s got a great shot at a ring and I don’t have to root for the team that foiled the Astros best chance at a championship.
I have SBN's tech support looking into having Google Stop the Warning
Apparently something like 5 months ago one of the ads on the site tripped a warning, and Google is just no getting around to complaining about it. From what I have gathered, the ad and the related software are long gone and this is just a huge nuisance.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Not with the dynamic duo of Happ-y days and Wins-days in place. That’s a minimum of 2 wins a week. When they coincide, as they will next week, I’m pretty sure there will be an effect similar to that of a solar eclipse.
OK y’all, this Wins-day talk has to be shut down by Sunday night, otherwise the Baseball Gods will take away our Wins-day privileges just to spite us.
Agreed
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL. i cant stand the NYY but if they get there and they arent facing Philly, Ill root for Lance to get ring.
Some Yankees fans seem to think he should bat sixth, others think he should bat eighth.
I would bat him second, since he has the highest projected OBP on their team.
Myers to Twins???
For Kevin Slowey? Interesting…. or even that guy we missed out on for Mier.. what waas his name?
I would love to get Slowey
I have an irrational mancrush on him because he throws strikes.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
Doesn’t hurt to dream. lol I think he might be off limits but you never know esp. if they are hurting for SP help.You think Myers has been good at MMP their park is pitcher’s wet dream.
Right on. Evn swap, basically. And the Twins are open to giviing up top tier prospects. I still cant believe they gave up Ramos for Matt freakin Capps… wow.
Let’s hope. Wade might have leverage after CWS traded for Jackson yesterday. Twins ineed of SP and Myers top RH SP on the market.
Id take Myers over Jackson any day, And Id take the Twins over White sox. …. Altho I hate the white soxa and everyhing bout them forever… but my point – Myers is more valuable, and White sox gave uop their #1 pitching prospect for Jackson. We should def shoot for Gibson or Revere.
Hicks or revere bllocked by anyone? Span maybe?
Rooting for Phillies/Yankees World Series
both Oswalt and Berkman should have their numbers retired at Minute Maid.
by goingforthecorner on Jul 31, 2010 3:22 AM CDT reply actions
Didn't you hear? We're trading Minute Maid Park for Coors Field.....
so that all of our weak sticks can MAYBE get a HR every once in a while.
by titansfan4ever on Jul 31, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but they coiulda saved him for us in the Myers trade.haha… They have a bunch of tooolsy, speed guys. Aaron Hicks maybe? Is that the Twins? or Ben revere?
Melancon is a good get for Houston
For awhile the Yanks thought he was their closer of the future (the dreaded “replacement for Mo” label) but whenever he faced big league hitters, he couldn’t throw strikes…ever.
He didn’t seem to have future in NY; if he did he’d be helping out the Yanks pen given its inconsistencies.
But I think going to Houston he won’t have the pressure that NY brings every night. Like many of you are saying he’s ready now, and I think eventually could earn a setup or possibly closer role if the job is open. He’s got that good of stuff.
He just needs a chance, and probably to not be with the Yankees.
Go New York Go!
Pence trade bait?
Is there any other logical reason for sitting Pence last night (after not having a game Thursday) other than Astros were in some serious talks with someone that involved Pence?
If they need to Michaels some game time, wouldn’t it better to replace the worst performing part of the outfield (Lee) vice the most productive outfielder?
Mills claims that Michaels just needed to playing time, and Footer commented that there is no way we’re moving Pence. However, on the news last night, they said we’re quietly shopping Pence. I honestly don’t know who to believe, but I’d lean towards Footer.
Wandy on the move?
The Astros became more open late Friday to the possibility of trading veteran starter Brett Myers, reports Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Now, Morosi’s colleague Ken Rosenthal tweets that the Astros are fielding offers for Wandy Rodriguez too.
Rodriguez, a 31-year-old southpaw, has a 4.80 ERA, 6.8 K/9, and 3.4 BB/9 on the season in 114.3 innings. He’s under team control through next year. His 2011 salary will be kept lower in part because the Astros beat him in arbitration for 2010, getting him for $5MM instead of $7MM. The sample is small, but Rodriguez’s July numbers are reminiscent of his breakout 2009 campaign. He’d be a solid pickup for a team seeking more than a rental, and the Astros shouldn’t be afraid to move him. I wouldn’t expect the price to be too different from that of Edwin Jackson.
Sorry if this should have been placed elsewhere. I we can get a Hudson-caliber prospect plus more, that would be amazing.
We really should.
Until then:
SI’s Jon Heyman tweets that the price is high for Myers – the Astros asked the Mets for Bobby Parnell and Josh Thole and were turned down.
Not a huge haul, but about what should be expected when the Rangers set the market price with Cantu
4M increased the prospect value a little, but this is about the best you could expect.
Anyone clamoring for more is letting their lover for Berkamn cloud the issue of his value to another club.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Except
Berkman is much, much better than Cantu. All in all not a bad trade though. Astros better off for the future.
actually, not really. Berkman's value is much more diminished than people think.
Cantu has the chance of being a Class B FA and a team would be willing to offer him Arb. Berkman, no chance. That in it self provides move value to Cantu. Berkman has his name, which artificially inflates his price.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
I know......
why don’t we trade anyone on the team who has a salary of more than 1 million….that way we could put a whole team of “toolsy minor league prospects” on the field….think of all the money we would save….and wouldn’t all of us Astro fans just LOVE to watch all those young players with “upside & potential”. If there is a flag at MMP…could one of you guys go put it at half mast.
I am more a fan of the releif pitcher
aside from Lyons and Lindstrom few relievers offer real stability maybe this guy can give us solid 2-3 innings of relief out of the pen… or be another setup guy if lindtrom or Lyons is moved…
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
As a Cards fan
I’ve always liked Berkman. Comes off very humble in interviews. Saw an interview with him once where they asked him what he thought of the Pujols, and he said – “by far the best hitter in the game, no one else that I’ve seen is even in the conversation.” It was one of those years where Berkman was raking early, too, and he would probably have been in the conversation. Just a cool guy. Like everyone keeps saying, a class act. I’m glad he’s going to a winner (though I’m a Yankee hater), and I hope he does well.
I posted this elsewhere, but I putting it here to just as a reminder
Here are some of the TCB rules:
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a) WRITING YOUR OPINION IN CAPS generally negatively correlates to the strength of the argument.
b) 1a does not apply to shouting during game threads for celebratory purposes or lamenting mindblowing-ly frustrating Astros baseball moments…like our penchant for not getting the guy on third with one or no outs home.
2) Our comments section allow for unlimited character usage, therefore text-speak is unnecessary—it just gets hard to read after while. Also, the more you respect the conventions of grammar, the more we’ll be able to engage with and respect your opinion.
b)BTW, LOL, and the well known abbreviations are fine, but: cuz, 4, 2, etc. are just grating.
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I have already deleted a number of comments over the last 48 hours on some of these grounds. Please, keep it civil and tasteful.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 31, 2010 10:30 AM CDT reply actions
Great quote from Oswalt on possibly facing Berkman in the World Series
He was saying the worst part was going to be facing me. I’ve been watching him for 10 years, so I kind of know where to throw him.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
As the trade deadline gets close to ending:
Who were the winners and losers? For all my griping, I do think the Astros came out as winners. The Reds and Mets lost because of their inactivity. The Phillies win, but the Cards only slightly with their addition. Your thoughts
Stros
came out winners for dumping two bi contracts to save some money got some young for the system who have some upside, a legit starter in Happ, a ML ready reliever, and the heir to Puma. Not a bad return. Of course time will be the true test of what Wade really got us.
I don't get where this leaves the Astros better off for the next few years
I don’t know the intricacies of how some of these deals work, but it seems you could rearrange it and summarize it something like this:
- You get a lower-level starter and a AAA reliever for Oswalt
- You get a lower-level replacement for Berkman (maybe much closer in talent than that)
- You get a few nice single-A prospects, but you’re out several million in cash too
Is that a fair way to look at it?
Ok now where are the Astros going forward? You’ve got less than you started with at the major league level, you have some kids who may be ready in a few years, and you’ve blown a ton of this year’s dough. How does this position the Astros to be any better for the next few years? The Express and Hooks are as weak as the Astros are, so how can you possibly build the team from below? If money is freed up next year for a free agent or two, so what? If 2-3 stars was enough to win, the Astros would have been looking forward to the playoffs already right? How can a strong team possibly get built in the future from where they are today?
Thanks – I appreciate your insight as to how this makes sense and where my logic is faulty. From reading some of the comments, it sounds like the answer might be “we’d have been worse off had we NOT made these trades”, which to me translates into “we won’t suck quite as badly as we would have, but we’ll still suck”.
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Current Series
Astros lead the series 1-0
| Fri 05/25 |
WP: Lucas Harrell (4 - 3)
SV: Brett Myers LP: Clayton Kershaw (4 - 2) |
3 - 1 win |
|
Houston Astros
Saturday, May 26, 2012, 9:10 PM CDT Bud Norris vs Chad Billingsley Mostly clear. Winds blowing out to right field at 5-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 65. |
||
| Sun 05/27 | 3:10 PM CDT | |
NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Cincinnati
|
25 | 20 | .555 | 0 | Lost 1 |
|
St. Louis
|
25 | 21 | .543 | 0.5 | Lost 2 |
|
Houston
|
22 | 23 | .488 | 3 | Won 4 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
21 | 24 | .466 | 4 | Won 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
19 | 26 | .422 | 6 | Won 2 |
|
Chicago
|
15 | 30 | .333 | 10 | Lost 10 |
(updated 5.26.2012 at 6:14 PM CDT)
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