Should Roy Oswalt approve a trade to the Phillies?
Throughout Roy Oswalt's non-request-trade-request debacle, Roy has let it be known that his desire to don another team's uniform is not so much about the dismal state that the Astros franchise finds itself in, but more about the desire to pitch in the World Series (how these two differ is up to you to discern). This is an understandable enough request for a pitcher who has been one of the greatest of his generation, but the most obscure as well. No ring. No Cy-Young. Just a sterling career that has been overshadowed by the likes of Halladay, Carpenter, Sabathia, etc.
In the last week that trade rumors surrounding Oswat's name have heated up, rumors have swirled about whether Roy would require less preferred teams to pick up his 2012 option for $16 million exercise his option, amongst other such stonewalling demands. Oswalt denies he has intentionally used his demands and ability to veto a trade to force Ed Wade to strike a deal with a particular team, but I am not so sure there hasn't been a little bit of that going on behind the scenes. He has to have a preference as to where he would go.
With Mark Berman reporting that the deal between the Astros and the Phillies finalized down to the dollars, cents, and players, the ball is now in Roy's court. All we have left to do is wait and see if Roy will approve the trade or not.
What we cannot know are what variables will go into forming his preference. We simply know that he wants to play for a contender and that he would love to get a World Series ring on his finger. We don't know what city he thinks is the best fit for his family, has the best Chinese food, etc., or how much weight Oswalt is giving to business vs. personal considerations.
My guess is that Roy Oswalt is not thumbing through the various models of postseason odds littered throughout the internet. I, however, am. The caveat that I want to keep in mind is that there is still much baseball to be played in 2010, and I imagine Oswalt, as a member of teams who have oft added credence to this caveat, is keeping this in mind too. Thus, the models should be taken with a grain of salt. The models, and their odds, I will be presenting attempt to utilize the know variable we have (the standings) and then simulate the rest of season weighting various factors. They are not perfect, but they are beneficial.
What these models also do not tell us, is what happens once the postseason picture is solidified. We do, however, know that there are certain facets of baseball teams that portend to playoff success, and therefore increase the probability of Oswalt getting a coveted World Series ring. Again, I don't know if Roy has thought of his possible destinations in this manner, but maybe he'll stumble across this and gain some insight.
Without further ado, then, let's sort through the numbers and see if Roy Oswalt should want to pitch in the City of Brotherly Love.
The Odds
We'll start in the obvious place: postseason odds. I am choosing to only look at the two teams who still seem relevant in the trade talks: the Cardinals and the Phillies. The Phillies are a place that Roy Oswalt has to make a decision on in the next 48 hours, but I want to compare what they offer to the Cardinals because they consistently were rumored to be his preferred destination and serve as a hypothetical foil to the Phillies. Moreover, the comparison allows us better draw out the ability of the Phillies to meet Oswalt's two confirmed desires: postseason action and a World Series ring in concrete relation to another still possibly possible trade.
In reality it appears that Roy might have to chose between the Phillies now or some other team in the off-season, but with the Cardinals and Phillies having hogged the headlines the most, I feel that Oswalt has probably been mulling a decision between the two respective locales for sometime. Thus, in someway Oswalt has likely already formed an opinion about Philly, but perhaps he'll peruse this with his morning coffee and be instructive.
| St. Louis | ||
| Model | Divisional Odds* | Wild Card Odds* |
| Bpro | 58.0% | 8.7% |
| Bpro Sched Adj | 57.5 | 6.7% |
| Bpro PECOTA | 61.9% | 7.1% |
| Cool Standings | 46.6% | 10.1% |
| SCS 50/50** | 53.7% | |
| SCS Weighted** | 67.2% | |
| Philidelphia | ||
| Model | Divisional Odds* | Wild Card Odds* |
| Bpro | 19.1% | 13.5% |
| Bpro Sched Adj | 25.4% | 14.8% |
| Bpro PECOTA | 19.0% | 14.3% |
| Cool Standings | 17.0% | 10.1% |
| SCS 50/50** | 32.8% | |
| SCS Weighted** | 24.4% | |
*These odds are through 07/27 due to the constraints imposed by the time some of the models updating and the time this is publishing. You can click the links to see their current statuses, which probably isn't a bad idea given the magnitude of day-to-day changes I've observed over the last three days of working on this.
**SCS does not break up their odds into Division vs. Wilcard. Thus, the odds reported are each team's odds of making the postseason through either avenue.
These models are all projecting a season in which each team finishes without Roy Oswalt on their roster. So while instructive, perhaps the better way of viewing each team's odds is to consider their current positions and then the marginal change Oswalt could have on them.
In that vein, Oswalt would have the largest impact on the Phillies rotation, which currently consists of Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, and a few near replacement level scrubs. The Cardinals, on the other hand, already have Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter, and Jaime Garcia dealing for them, with Brad Penny performing admirably. The addition of Oswalt doesn't provide the same size shift for the Cardinals that he does for the Phillies.
Considering the tight Central race that is developing between the Cardinals and the Reds, Oswalt's lesser impact to the quality of the rotation could be the difference maker for the Cardinals run up to the pennant. On the other hand, Oswalt could also be the savior of Philly, who is already well positioned to make a late surge once Utley returns from the DL and is itself embroiled in a tight race for the Wild Card and well within striking distance of the Braves. So perhaps Oswalt could boil his options down which story line he would like to write: one of being the slight difference in the Cardinals story, or one of potentially being the game changer if the Phillies make the postseason. The converse, of course, is that Oswalt has more to lose if things don't pan out in Philly than if he went to St. Louis.
Still, in terms of raw odds, the Cardinals would be Oswalt's favored destination. The Phillies have the disadvantage of trailing the Braves by a few games in their division and the Reds and Gaints in the Wild Card, too. But Roy Oswalt also seems to be the kind of guy who likes to have the weight of a club on his shoulders, and Philly seems to provide more opportunity to build his mythology up on the national stage. To me, this seems like a wash from his perspective (or rather my assumption of what Roy Oswalt's perspective is), but the numbers still point him to the Cardinals in our hypothetical scenario.
The path to a World Series ring
While making the playoffs is obviously a necessary requirement for a team to win the World Series, there are several other factors that go into propelling a team to World Series victory (aside from luck). In Baseball Prospectus' seminal sabermetrics primer, Baseball Between the Numbers, Nate Silver penned a chapter that evaluated what facets of a team incline them to have success in the postseason. Through multivariate regression analysis, he concluded that closer WRXL (Win Expectation above Replacement, lineup adjusted), pitchers' strikeout rates, and FRAA (team defense) where the three most important factors in playoff success.
WRXL essentially measures whether they are holding leads in close situations, or not? While it is an indirect measure of a closer's skill, it does provide us with plenty of information. I, personally, feel that it doesn't quite give us enough information and can be supplemented with something like xFIP and attention to other skill components. This is because WRXL can be as much a function of a pitcher's skill, tenacity, clutchness, etc. as it can be his managers predilections or his teams offensive prowess. Thus, let's compare Ryan Franklin and Brad Lidge:
| Reliever | WXRL | xFIP |
| Franklin | 3.173 | 4.37 |
| Lidge | 1.101 | 4.14 |
Franklin leads in WRXL, which is to expected giving that he has more than doubled Lidge's IP, but he still is out pacing Lidge on a per inning basis, too. Their stats, however, muddy the waters. Due a low K-rate, above average—but not outstanding—ground ball numbers, and well below career norms HR/FB percentage Franklin's xFIP is nothing to write home about. Lidge's xFIP to ERA differential reflects his unlucky HR/FB rate, but also his damning BB/9 of nearly 6.
Basically, Oswalt could take his pick between an effective, but slightly lucy Franklin, or an unlucky and therefore less effective Lidge. The regession analysis obviously favored WRXL because it demonstrated what was working, and because the sample sizes we are dealing with when I talk about luck and skill are small, etc. I'll credit the Cardinals here. (In a FWIW caveat, the xFIP of the Phillies bullpen and the Cardinals bullpen were identical as of 7/27)
Overall K-rate for a team goes to the Cardinals, by a margin of .05, which creates an interesting proposition Oswalt. Obviously his addition to the Cardinals only increases their K-rate, but his addition to the Phillies would push them above the Cardinals who could potentially be his opponent in the NLCS. The Cardinals get the nod in this category, again, but the opportunity for Oswalt to make a bigger splash in Philly continues to present itself.
The final variable of importance is team defense. The theme of all the variables that increase the odds of success in the postseason is run prevention. Closers with solid WRXL's don't allow runs, no runs can score on a strikeout (unless there's a wild pitch swung at with a runner on third...but that's a rare event), and teams with better defense are better positioned to prevent hits and walks from turning into runs scored. The most fascinating result of Nate Silver's research is that offense actually has no correlation with postseason success. Run prevention is king, and if DIPS theory tells us anything it is that team defense is the straw that stirs the proverbial drink.
| DRS | RZR | OOZ | UZR/150 | |
| Cardinals | 40 | 0.811 | 304 | -0.03 |
| Phillies | 29 | 0.827 | 251 | -1.1 |
While Colin Wyers has now made me all too skeptical of any of the defensive metrics that are currently available, the conclusion we can draw from them is that Cardinals have the edge defensively. The only statistic that the Phillies lead in is RZR, but I imagine the Cardinals 48 out of zone play advantage his to eat into the Phillies lead there. My unease with interpreting anything more for the numbers aside, they indicate that Roy, and any pitcher for that matter, should feel more confident with the Cardinals' gloves behind him than the Phillies'.
So does he like the Phillies or not?
What has all of the above analysis actually given us? Well, it has pretty much indicated that by just about every measure we looked at the Cardinals would be a better bet to get Roy Oswalt to the World Series. Although the Cardinals have the advantage in both current odds and the factors that lead to postseason success, it is important to note that their margin of victory over the Phillies is in no way dominant in most of the individual categories. In many of the areas we have examined, margins of error could account for any differentiation observed. Also of note is the fact that the Cardinals don't have a deal in place with the Astros (that we know of).
What comparing the two teams has drawn out is this: Oswalt could be a huge factor in a Philly run to the World Series. Just imagine what pitching well on East Coast team, in the midst of a late-second half surge could do for Oswalt's legacy—not to mention Oswalt's competitive spirit. There is certainly more risk in Phillies chances of fulfilling Roy Oswalt's desires in 2010, but the opportunity to imprint himself on the national consciousness is great. Not to mention that at this point it is between staying in Houston to break Joe Niekro's record or assuredly pitching for a team that is likely to be in contention both in the present and in 2011 as well.
As I said at the outset, I am not privy to Roy Oswalt's thought process, but even without the odds and acronymed stats, it has to be fairly easy to see the writing on the wall. Perhaps Roy Oswalt, who likely has had at least some influence on where he could end up, has been mulling a decision not so much about where the best place to live for nine months a year may be or his $16 million option for 2012. Instead, he may just be contemplating which narrative he would like to have the chance to author in the twilight of his career (or my preference that he accept a to the Phillies has totally skewed my analysis of evidence that clearly suggest he should actually probably be slightly leery of a trade to the Phillies).
**As we await word on who the players moving in the deal are, be sure to check out Orem's evaluation of the potential pieces coming to us from the Phillies**
0 recs |
211 comments
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Comments
Great read.
My immediate thought is “I’m really glad he’s choosing between the Phillies and the Astros, rather than the Phillies and the Cardinals”. Pretty persuasive evidence in favor of the latter; I would have thought the teams would be closer in postseason odds given that St. Louis is tied with Cincinnati, and doesn’t even solely hold the division lead.
In any case, I would definitely have to believe that it helps the chances of Roy approving the trade that Philly just went on a tear with that seven-win streak they’re on. They have a legitimate shot at the postseason, at least, which is a lot more than he could say playing here in Houston. And they should be set up pretty wellfor next year with his services.
There’s also got to be a little bit of an emotional factor where you feel like “well, I’m going to the hottest team in baseball”. Who knows how much that plays into his thinking.
On a less analytical note
We did see a (questionable) report earlier today that Oswalt “can’t wait to get out of Houston” (geez, thanks, Roy) and that he would not veto a trade even for the sake of getting his option picked up.
Hopefully that’s true.
I was dismayed when I started on this a few days ago to see all the evidence
This was a originally just a “who would be better for Roy” piece that I changed in about thirty minutes once I saw Berman’s report and I am glad that it’s the Stros for at least the end of 2010 or the Phillies now.
I, of course, really believe that there has to be something the national stage/savior narrative that I invented as I went along with the piece. I hope it is enough and I hope the haul is, too.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was like, “Wow, Stephen’s big story is super timely and precognizant!”
I hope all those factors are enough, and Ed Wade did good with all the hardball he’s been playing.
Now I want to delete this thread of comments and look a lot cooler than I am
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions
McTaggart adds some more info to the news
Including player/prospect speculation.
Link.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
On a somewhat immautre note
one of the reasons I’m hoping we get Singleton is because it would nice to see all of the Wade-bashing armchair GM’s who’ve been saying Roy isn’t worth a good prospect eat a big plate of crow.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
That would be fun
Mostly, though, I’m just incredibly high on Singleton. What he’s doing, at age 18, in a really tough league for hitters? Very, very rare.
Oh I agree, the production/upside is the real deal. Schadenfreude is just the added bonus.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
Is it sad that the Schadenfreude
Would actually be the thing that excites me the most?
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions
From a Post on MLB-TradeRumors:
Supposedly from someone connected to agent Bob Garber, the deal is as follows:
Phillies Receive:
SP Roy Oswalt (Phils agree to renegotiate 2012 buyout from $2M to $5M)
2B/Utility Jeff Keppinger
Cash Consideration of $8M (roughly half of Oswalt’s remaining 2010 salary plus buyout)
Astros Receive:
1B Jon Singleton
P JP Happ
P Scott Mathieson
OF Anthony Gose
-
Sounds like a very fair package if true.
Big grain of salt, but
Yes please! I’ll take it!
(Still don’t know why we need Gose, who is basically the same player as Jay Austin and Michael Bourn and Jason Bourgeois, but what the heck, he’s a good prospect!)
I bet Tal Smith would only allow
The deal to happen if we got a “toolsy” OF
by Z-Dub on Jul 29, 2010 6:50 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Jeez...
assuming this is true, this was a much better haul than the crap Amaro got for Cliff Lee over the winter!
Ruben Amaro, Jr.: a dangerously insane individual. He has done irreparable and permanent damage to that franchise, and they were set up so well for long term success when he took over. Unforgivably bad management of resources.
I’ve really started to buy into Singleton as a special prospect, and I think he’s almost definitely top 50 for me now and maybe even top 25. His bat is one of the best in the minors. Happ… is nothing great. Mid/back guy, but cheap enough and decent enough to fill a rotation spot for awhile on a non contender and perhaps even be swung somewhere else for prospects at some point.
Gose has some impressive tools, but he’s more athlete than ballplayer and he swings at everything. Mathieson has had TJ surgery twice and is 26, but throws real hard and should be at least a useful bullpen piece… and some have always thought he could close (again caveat of health). That’s a heck of a haul for an aging pitcher who is providing no surplus value over what he gets paid – which means he can be replaced at the same cost in free agency.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
7:37am: SI’s Jon Heyman hears the Astros and Phillies were discussing Happ, righty Vance Worley, and two younger pitchers (Twitter link). Worley, a 22-year-old righty, spent most of 2010 at Double A, posting a 3.20 ERA, 6.6 K/9, and 2.9 BB/9. Baseball America ranked him 18th among Phillies prospects heading into the season, predicting a future as a back-end starter or middle reliever.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
wtf
7:37am: SI’s Jon Heyman hears the Astros and Phillies were discussing Happ, righty Vance Worley, and two younger pitchers (Twitter link). Worley, a 22-year-old righty, spent most of 2010 at Double A, posting a 3.20 ERA, 6.6 K/9, and 2.9 BB/9. Baseball America ranked him 18th among Phillies prospects heading into the season, predicting a future as a back-end starter or middle reliever.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Wow this makes Ed Wade look good
Lets just hope we get the right prospects. Gose is solid speed guy who strikes out a ton, but he stole 76 bases last year! He’s just turning 20 in a couple weeks. This guy has Michael Bourn written all over him. A lefty throwing Michael Bourn.
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jul 29, 2010 2:05 AM CDT reply actions
Regarding Gose
If it’s true that he’s part of the deal; I’ve been looking at some scouting reports, and I’ve seen some pretty scary hype about the kid. Supposedly he has a ton of physical projection left, and could hit 15-20 HR in the future, in addition to his plus-plus speed. So perhaps I was a little too pessimistic in my comparison; it sounds like the best case scenario is that he could have an everyday left fielder’s bat and the speed and skill to play plus defense in CF.
He’s very raw though.
He’s currently the front page article on baseball america, can anyone that has a subscription mind posting it?
I don’t have a subscription, and I’d also suggest that nobody do more than summarize in short form, since that content is under copyright and can’t be linked to.
Interesting that he would be the front page prospect though.
A note on Gose
by the way, as a pitcher in HS, he threw 97mph – so he has a plus plus arm, too. We phils fans see his downside as Shane Victorino, upside is more like a Shane’s pop and defense with Bourns base stealing and batting closer to 280-290.
Maybe Brad Lidge will encourage Oswalt to accept the deal.
I doubt that Roy uses these playoff odds to make his decision, and we are lucky if that’s the case. My gut feeling is that the Phillies have a better chance at the playoffs than those odds suggest. They are the type of team which can get very hot and bulldoze it’s way into the playoffs. (I picked the word “bulldoze” without even thinking about Oswalt’s gift from Drayton.) I also don’t view the Braves as a super dominant team in the division. The Braves are good, but they also have their weaknesses.
By the way, I thought Brad Penny is likely out for most of the season, if not the year.
from heyman
heard #phils, #astros were discussing happ, rhp vance worley and 2 younger pitchers. could be package for #oswalt.
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 7:38 AM CDT reply actions
i hope hes wrong...
want singleton
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I also want Singleton
If we get Happ, Worley and two young pitchers, the trade could only be judged when we know how the ‘two pitchers’ turn out
anyway
im happy to hear this so early…if we get the trade today, maybe wade opens talks for myers/wandy…to deal myers would be great, to hold on wouldn’t be so bad, but to not try would be terrible
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 7:39 AM CDT reply actions
any chance this thread
could get bumped up…ppl. that only go here might only see the first thread and say nothing has happened
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 7:59 AM CDT reply actions
BS
these two prospects better be high end ones or I wouldn’t do a deal without Singleton involved.
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jul 29, 2010 7:59 AM CDT reply actions
He looks interesting but
not quite Singleton. That guys an impact prospect.
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jul 29, 2010 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Doesn’t quite ring true for me that the Astros would go after four pitching prospects. I hope they were just players among the ones being discussed, and we’re getting Singleton.
If we just got jobbed by Ruben Amaro Jr.
I’m not going to be happy. I would rather see us keep him until the off season if we are getting sufficient value back for one of the most consistent pitchers of the past ten years.
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jul 29, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
interesting to see
if berkman might ask to be out since he sees his buddy gone…but with bagwell being there he might stay
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 8:03 AM CDT reply actions
Craig Calcaterra has an article up
As Drew noted last night, there’s a deal in place between the Phillies and the Astros for Roy Oswalt. Everyone is now waiting for Oswalt’s decision on his no trade clause. I have some thoughts on that (see below) but in the meantime, let’s speculate about what the deal may look like, assuming it goes through.
The rumor that has been going around is that the Phillies would get some money along with Oswalt — the figure I saw was $8 million — and that in exchange they’d send back J.A. Happ and prospects Matt Rizzotti and Vance Worley. We all know Happ, so let’s look at the rumored prospects.
Unless the other part is a “A” prospect, this is going to make a lot of people unhapppy
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Conflicts with what Heyman said. I like Rizzotti, but he’s no Singleton.
Meh, I bet a hundred packages were floated. I want to wait and see a more firm report regarding what was settled upon.
I think people have gotten their hopes up on the return to a point that
their unrealistic expectations are not going to let them feel good about a deal that isn’t centered around elite A prospects.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
the x factor
As for Oswalt’s decision: everything I had been hearing last week was that he didn’t want to go to Philly due to some combination of him (a) not feeling comfortable with the organization; (b) not feeling that they had as good a chance to win as St. Louis; and © simply liking St. Louis. In the last week, however, the Phillies have been on a roll and the Cardinals have appeared to not be a realistic match.
Or Oswalt doesn’t want to watch Lidge try to close out his games again……
Yeah
I have been saying all along we wouldn’t get top prospects because of the market and how highly prospects are regarded now days. I guess I just thought a Colletti or Amaro Jr. Would panic and pull the trigger on a more favorable deal for Houston.
by SteveBartman_MVP on Jul 29, 2010 8:24 AM CDT reply actions
Phils fan
If it’s the package with Singleton, this is a great deal for Wade. If we’ve replaced him Worley and Rizotti, I feel much better about Amaro. RAJ was making me reminiscent about Wade’s deals.
When you get two of the worst GMs together, fireworks happen. :)
better be an upgraded piece in their because if this
SI_JonHeyman
hearing #astros are paying a lot of $ to philly in oswalt deal. he has $24 mil left thru ’11.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Good.
Goooooooood.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Given that the Astros were so persistent in getting the players that they wanted
I don’t think this means anything other than they got a good haul, if true.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
From Orange Bloods
Supposedly from someone connected to agent Bob Garber, the deal is as
follows:
Phillies Receive:
SP Roy Oswalt (Phils agree to renegotiate 2012 buyout from $2M to $5M)
2B/Utility Jeff Keppinger
Cash Consideration of $8M (roughly half of Oswalt’s remaining 2010
salary plus buyout)
Astros Receive:
1B Jon Singleton
P JP Happ
P Scott Mathieson
OF Anthony Gose
Take it for what you will…..
oops, my bad.
I jumped in this morning and just scanned over last night’s post….
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I just read on MLB TV's ticker
that Oswalt is still demanding that they pick up his 2012 option.
I wonder if that is accurate.
How could Roy veto?
After requesting a trade, I just can’t imagine the PR backlash he would face for not waiving his NTC. My guess is that his agent is talking with the Phillies about that 2012 option. I don’t see Philly guaranteeing that option but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the price for them declining going up from that $2 million.
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 9:04 AM CDT reply actions
Because he has the contractual right too
As much as Roy’s demands, or rumored demands, have annoyed me during this process, we have to keep in mind that his NTC didn’t just appear in his contract- he bargained for it. Obviously having the discretion to prevent his family having to pack up and move to whatever city was best for the Astros and not himself is something he felt important and the Astros were ok with granting.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with what you are saying. I just think that his request for a trade and then the media circus that has gone on, he is basically backed into a corner where if he does veto, he will face a heavy backlash.
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
so all the rumored 4 for 1 deals are bogus it seems and Craig C may be right
Ken Rosenthal Ken_Rosenthal
Source: Deal is 3-for-1. Happ in. #Astros would pay “very significant” part of Oswalt’s remaining salary, which is over 23M. #MLB #Phillies
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Rosenthal adds this wrinkly I don't believe
Source: Deal is 3-for-1. Happ in. #Astros would pay “very significant” part of Oswalt’s remaining salary, which is over 23M. #MLB #Phillies
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2010/07/astros_awaiting.html
I guess that confirms what Justice says: Happ, Singleton and Worley.
speculating
he’s on 1560 this morning and john or lance pulled singleton’s name out of the air, and Justice cried about horrible it would be if they settled for Singleton…..
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Justice seems to be flip flopping. In an earlier version of the blog, he was criticizing the Astros if they got a few prospects and Happ rather than more major league players. Now he is criticizing the Astros if they don’t get younger prospects. Although I agree with the latter statement, he seems to be set to criticize the deal anyway it goes.
would not be a good deal
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
I agree
If it was the Astros making a similar trade, I’d expect Lyles to be in the package…
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
MLB Trade Rumors mlbtraderumors
RT @DKnobler: Oswalt seems to be Drayton McLane’s deal. He’s been working on it with Phils president Dave Montgomery.
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Dear Lord
Please no
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
If that’s the case, then why do we even have a GM?
The last thing we need is Drayton with full Al Davis control.
by BoxyBrown on Jul 29, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
go say hello to petter angelos and
ask him how this scenario works out
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
re: Al Davis
Oh man, just think of D-Mac running around in track suits…..
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully they have just been discussing the amount of money the Astros pick up.
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Jerome Solomon JeromeSolomon
Expect Roy Oswalt to OK trade. The $$$ will work. RT @HoustonChron Astros await Oswalt’s OK on deal to Phillies http://bit.ly/aZhsQt
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
I'm getting so tired of rumors
I’m considering setting up bets on what time Oswalt finally makes his decision just to keep my own interest.
from stark
No formal deadline for Oswalt to OK trade to #Phillies. But he & Happ scheduled to start tomorrow. So both teams prefer answer today #trades
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 9:52 AM CDT reply actions
From BA's Jim Callis on Twitter
Depends on other guy(s). Happ, Worley don’t thrill me. @RHoward_FMelo: How do you like rumored Happ/Worley/prospect package for Astros?
Yeah, doesn’t thrill me either, Jim….but that’s what happens when you let a chimpanzee drive the car.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:05 AM CDT reply actions
my hope is the front office is leaking these names intentionally, so that when its announced that we’ve got Singleton everyone hails Wade as a genius.
i believe he also thinks
even if singleton is in trade its better but still not so great
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
stark
One player #Astros-#Phillies discussed if J. Singleton isn’t in deal: Double-A 1B Matthew Rizzotti. Leads lg in AVG (.364) by 52 pts #trades
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
I hope
that is a big “IF”!
I honestly don’t know a whole lot about the Phillies prospects other that the fine work I’ve read here, but Singleton at least gives Astros fan hope of a middle the order bat that could become the future “face of the franchise”.
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
more from stark
Updated Oswalt story: #Astros would get Happ & 2 prospects, & would send $12M to #Phillies as part of deal http://es.pn/b8ch1f #trades
$12M is alot of scratch to not get their top prospect back.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
More from Callis on Twitter
Like it more. But trading Oswalt & best guy is low Class A 1B isn’t great. @LEXthePEX: Big if but if Singleton is included how do you feel?
Hey Jim, we’ll take what we can get….
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:21 AM CDT reply actions
and Callis is on a roll
Great for McLane, not great for the club. Have Astros shown they can spend the savings wisely? @bdrew04: what if you save a bunch of money?
I don’t believe he has Jim…
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Save money for what?
Are we really going to be players in the 2011 FA market?
That would be repeating the same mistakes that have got us into this mess.
agreed
plus if they are throwing in $12M as reported/rumored then they aren’t saving a ton of cash…
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
well is it 12 M for this year and next year?
all for next year?
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I have no clue
I would think it would be paid all up front, but maybe not. They may be paying % of Roy’s contract for this year and next year plus the buyout. So it could be spread out a bit.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
unless....
they think they’re going to make a run at Carl Crawford and out bid the Yankees…..
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
from stark - new info
One player #Astros-#Phillies discussed if J. Singleton isn’t in deal: Double-A 1B Matthew Rizzotti. Leads lg in AVG (.364) by 52 pts #trades
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:24 AM CDT reply actions
from stark new info
Updated Oswalt story: #Astros would get Happ & 2 prospects, & would send $12M to #Phillies as part of deal http://es.pn/b8ch1f #trades
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:24 AM CDT reply actions
12 M. should get you at least
happ, singleton, and 1 more..
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
$12M
That should be code for: “You’re damn right we expect Singleton”
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
from MLBTR
The identities of the other two players going to Houston remain unknown, but ESPN’s Jayson Stark says the Astros have pushed hard for minor league first baseman Jonathan Singleton. Stark has an unconfirmed rumor from a strong source that the Astros offered to pay $12MM to the Phillies in the deal.
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
$12M should have gotten them in the D.Brown conversation.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 10:26 AM CDT reply actions
Cosart
Will not be part of the trade. Not only has he been shutdown the Phillies will not part with both Singleton and Cosart.
If it's really $12M
It seems like has to be a blue chip prospect involved, and probably another very good one. I’m hoping Singleton and Colvin.
So anyway, to answer this more fully. Singleton would likely be our best prospect. He’d at a minimum be our number two prospect behind Lyles.
Colvin would be in the 3-5 range, I suspect; around where Bushue is. Rizzotti would fall in the 5-10 range. Worley would likely be in the 11-20 range.
So Singleton/Colvin would be a pretty nice haul.
by Jordan Sams on Jul 29, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
It would probably be between Singleton and Lyles as top prospect. Worley would probably be just ahead of Keuchel. Colvin would be in a similar spot as Bushue. I’d put Rizz under Clemens because he’s older and he’s having some BABiP luck.
Where do you guys think Ovando will fit in?
by Jordan Sams on Jul 29, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Right now, Ovando is hard to get a bead on because he doesn’t have any pro ball experience. I could see the argument for putting him anywhere from no. 2 behind Lyles (on the basis of scouting reports and upside) to leaving him off the list entirely (because he lacks a track record).
If he goes into rookie ball next year and dominates, he’ll probably be one of our top three or four prospects.
The range on him is so wide for the reasons you said. It just depends a lot on how you construct your top 10. If you you weigh it heavily on upside, Ovando is going to be up there. But if you value production to the extreme, he stays off the list. I like a mix of the two so he’d be in my top 10. Probably no higher than 4 though.
Beat me to it.
Was just going to say that.
by Jordan Sams on Jul 29, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Hearing A) Singleton not in deal and B) #Phillies getting less than 12M, though number is in that range. Educated guess: 10-11M #Astros #MLB
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
This from the man who...
said that Oswalt was refusing to go to Philly
said yesterday that Cliff Lee was the ‘best pitcher in baseball.’
if i had to guess
the deal is … Happ/Singleton/Warley
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:04 AM CDT reply actions
from chris sprow
If Oswalt deal gets done: Given the monetary figures we’re hearing, there’s a really cool/sad dichotomy at work in Houston.
Cool: If the deal gets done, the Astros would go into the offseason with roughly $30-33 million in TOTAL obligations for payroll in 2011.
Sad: Of that, $19 million is committed to Carlos Lee.
Overheard: “…So, uh, ’Los … you gonna pick up the tab on this one?”
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:06 AM CDT reply actions
While we wait for an official announcement
Which Astro is the next to go? I’m going off of the assumption/hope that WadeSmith is not done after the Roy deal.
I’m gonna guess Keppinger. Berkman seems like the only other player that has a decent chance to get traded. I’d like to see them shop Myers and Wandy, but it doesn’t sound like that’s gonna happen.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
The whole Myers ‘untouchable’ deal is weird.
by Jordan Sams on Jul 29, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention incredibly short-sighted. If Myers really wants to be here next year, why not just make some sort of gentlemen’s agreement that we’ll trade him away for the rest of the year with the intent to re-sign him after the season.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
my hope is noon announcement our time...
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Happ
Say this deal eventually goes down, will JA be a 10-13 win pitcher for us? He was 12-3 i think with a 2.94 ERA last year as a 27 year old rookie. What held him back until he was 27? Injuries? And can he keep the ERA below 4?
We typically don’t judge pitchers by their W/L record, which is dependent as much on the team’s offense and defense as it is on the pitcher’s abilities (plus simple luck).
I’d predict an ERA in the 3.75-4.25 range, but you never know. Luck and defense factor into ERA a lot, too.
I’m not as optimistic about Happ as your prediction. But it would be nice if you were correct. My guess is that Happ is a mid-4’s ERA pitcher with the Astros, so long as his health is good.
I was in that camp until I looked at his minor league numbers. I was surprised how many hitters he struck out in the upper minors. Makes me think he has a good chance to be a middle rotation guy moving forward, as long as he stays healthy, like you said.
this is getting old
ok if SINGLETON isnt in the deal then iam done because at the end of the day all astros fans want is HOPE and thats singleton he looks like he is going to be great and most people think so even BA could they be wrong yes could he choke sure but at least he brings hope happ is a solid 4 with 2 upside and some of the other guys iam not sure but we need hope and if we dont get it with this trade then the future looks dark for the astros
by Rupert Sanchez on Jul 29, 2010 11:14 AM CDT reply actions
It doesn't matter who they get
the immediate future, i.e. next 2 or 3 years, looks dark already and unless Singleton is the second coming of Albert Pujols and they end up with a true ace pitcher, then it’s going to continue to look dark for some time…
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Roy needs to hurry up and decide
Hearing Oswalt not a fan of Citizens Bk Pk, but he’s 4-0, 2.60 ERA in 4 starts-tied with Coors for best win pct at any current park. #trades
Otherwise we’ll be forced to read this kind of drivel all day long.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 11:18 AM CDT reply actions
I'm bummed....
I was really hoping they could trade O to the Dodgers for Dee Brown, so in 2014 we could have a lineup like this:
SS Dee Brown
LF Jason Bourgeois
RF Jay Austin
1B Koby Clemens
C Jason Castro
2B Delino DeShields
CF Michael Bourn
3B Geoff Blum
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:23 AM CDT reply actions
That team would lead the league in steals and sac bunts
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
you forgot about Mr. Ovando...
He will be playing LF and batting 3 or 4
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
noway buddy
they don’t steal enough bases or suck enough….
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I tend to think Singleton is a better prospect than Dee Gordon.
I laughed at 2014 “3B Geoff Blum”, though.
player/manager, I’m guessing
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
gerald young would be the manager, so he can teach them how to steal bases. Eric Yielding would be the hitting coach.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I was mainly joking
but there’s a real possibility to having at least 3 speedy guys in the lineup…..
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
You gotta hope the whole "Myers untouchable" stuff
is all a negotiation ploy. The guy’s career has been the model for inconsistency and his value will never be higher than right now!!
I would be shopping him hard, but I guess I don’t mind extending him. If he walks for nothing, I’ll be pissed, and if both sides pick up the option, I’ll be moderately irritated. Myers could be a useful veteran inningseater in 2012-13, but I’d want to get him on a cheap extension now before his value gets any higher.
Once Oswalt is in Philly, Wade needs to call up Omar Minaya and offer him Myers, reminding him he’ll need to keep up with the Phillies by adding an SP of his own.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
I’d be on the phone with the Braves to see if they have any interest in Berkman.
by IndianaAstrofan on Jul 29, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Lance is just awful.
Why would anybody want him?
This is the Houston Astros we're talking about...
Not exactly impressive.
Berkman is in the top 3 or 4 in OBP right now. If I’m another GM with a better lineup, and perhaps the ability to target Berkman against RHP, I could see that OPB as both very useful and an indicator that he will get more good pitches to hit in a different batting order.
I think the Rangers might be looking for a Right Handed bat. Why not offer them Lee plus a boatload of cash for a couple of young prospects. I wouldn’t even care that much if weren’t high end prospects either.
by PeteyNhtown on Jul 29, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Or we trade Lee, pay his salary, but have the Rangers pick up the buffet bills? Might get our money’s worth on that.
"He walked 18."
"New league record!"
"Struck out 18."
"Another new league record! In addition he hit the sportswriter, the public address announcer, the bull mascot twice...also new league records! But, Joe, this guy's got some serious shit."
or with the mets about giving them myers
tell them that if they give us an offer, a little better then fair we would do it…
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Im hoping after this trade...myers is gone
and so is keppinger feliz and possibly wandy…lets get young starting august 1st…
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:31 AM CDT reply actions
agreed
can you imagine if they get nothing out of this how long will it be before we even compete let alone contend.
if we get good top prospects with this deal and make some more moves dump some pay roll draft solid top prospects and make the right free agency moves we are right back in it
you never know the rays use to suck remember that
by Rupert Sanchez on Jul 29, 2010 11:32 AM CDT reply actions
I think the Singleton Legacy is a little premature
Yes, he is rated highly, but let’s not forget he is only in A ball. Sooo many things can happen between A ball and the majors.
I want him in the deal just as much as you guys, in fact his K/BB walk rate has me giddy, but let’s not forget, like all prospects there are no guarantees.
*On that note, I just looked up Pujols’ A ball numbers and they are very close. (.953 vs .944 OPS, w/ similar K/BB rates)
i hope if we get singleton
he starts in corpus…
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
He’s only 18 dude. By Astros normal operating procedures he would have at least 4.5 more years before in A ball before being promoted to AA.
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
lol... legacy is premature...
so let me draw a comparison to Pujols.
J/K…
Of course there's risk involved
But at the same time, there’s a ridiculous amount of upside. There’s a realistic scenario where he could be playing in A+ this year, spend next year between AA-AAA, and be on the opening day roster in 2012 at age 20. Heyward notwithstanding, that’s very rare.
Happens all the time
Scouts rave about tons of guys. I’m not saying they aren’t warranted in Singleton’s case, just that I’m more of a prove to me your special kind of guy.
For every David Wright, there are far more Alex Gordon’s.
Roy Oswalt plans to OK deal to #Phillies, source says. But deal not official yet. More to come on ESPN.com #trades
oswalt
didnt he say something that he wants to make sure the trade is good for him and for the astros…
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions
I believe by that, he meant “I want to make sure the trade is good for me, and if not, I’m going to blame the team.”
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 29, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Fanshot for discussion of Stark's report
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Jul 29, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions
Ken_Rosenthal Sources: Deal still not done. “Indications favorable,” details remain. 2012 option will NOT be exercised. (More) #Phillies #Astros #MLB
half a minute ago via web
Reply Retweet .
jaysonst Here’s the updated Oswalt story http://es.pn/cIIzM8. Sources now say #Astros will send $11 million to #Phillies as part of deal
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 12:10 PM CDT reply actions
Oswalt will be compensated for waiving no-trade in some other way. #Phillies #Astros #MLB.
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 29, 2010 12:12 PM CDT reply actions
a bad ass tractor this time. maybe some chrome exhausts and flames on the side.
by clack on Jul 29, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

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