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The Astros Have An Outfield Logjam

In our discussions about trading Roy Oswalt to the hated Cardinals, we touched on some of their upper-level prospects who might be of interest to the Astros.  One name mentioned which I didn't have on my list was Jon Jay, an athletic, MLB-ready young outfielder who can swing the bat a little.

I actually do like Jon Jay as a fringe starter/good bench player type, but there's a reason I didn't include him on my list of Cardinals prospects of interest: We have no need for him.  We are already loaded with similar players in the upper minors.  Exhibit A:

Outfielders_medium

Keep in mind that the ones with the least impressive slash lines, like DeLome and Gaston, have been hitting very well lately and turning around previously poor seasons.

So basically, forget about trading for a fringey MLB-ready outfielder.  If you can get back an elite outfield prospect, that's one thing, but the Astros have no need for a Jon Jay type player.

This does bring up an interesting question, however.  What the heck do the Astros do with all this outfield depth next season?

Star-divide

Trade them away for something the Astros do need.

One obvious possibility would be to deal from this depth to obtain something the Astros have more use for.  It's probably a good idea to think of Martinez as untouchable at this point, but the rest could be available, particularly the older AAA outfielders who don't have anywhere to move up to.

It's unlikely that these types of prospects would be worth a good MLB player, so you're looking at picking up either a bench player, or a fringey prospect at a position the Astros do need to fill.  My preference is the latter; next year should be another rebuilding season, so it's a good idea to take a shot on a guy with an outside chance at becoming a starter.  I'm thinking of a Brock Bond type, as one example; a guy who is probably a utility infielder in the long run, but has a small chance at sticking as a starter in a way similar to someone like Martin Prado.  Or maybe a starting pitcher like Sam LeCure, who has been very productive in the minors, but scouts see as someone with average stuff unlikely to be more than a back of the rotation starter.

In any case, those AA outfielders are going to need to move up to Round Rock next year, and they won't be able to do that with three starters blocking their path.

Trade away an MLB outfielder.

It's possible, though unlikely, that a guy like Bogusevic could be good enough to start for the big league team.  At the very least all three of those AAA prospects could be capable bench outfielders if given a chance.  Trouble is, the Astros are totally locked in at the big league level.  We're stuck with Carlos Lee and his bloated contract and body, while Michael Bourn and Hunter Pence are young, inexpensive, and productive.  Even the bench is pretty much set; Jason Bourgeois has proven himself a useful bench outfielder, and Jason Michaels is serviceable as well.

Perhaps next season Michaels will depart and open up room on the bench for one player, but that still leaves two other prospects who must be put somewhere.  They could become mere organizational players, stuck in the minor leagues until they hit minor league free agency or get selected in the rule 5 draft, but that would be a waste of their value.

So one possibility could be to trade away a MLB player to open up space.  Maybe that would just be a bench player; perhaps Bourgeois will have convinced other teams of his value enough to bring back a grade C prospect with some upside, and could be traded to open up room for a Bogusevic or DeLome.

More drastically, trading away Pence or Bourn shouldn't be entirely off-limits.  I wouldn't do it unless we got a young, MLB-ready cost-controlled player of similar value, at a position where we have greater need (I'm thinking of a player like Reid Brignac or Jeremy Hellickson of the Rays).  Since teams are usually hesitant to do deals like that, and the Astros probably view Pence and Bourn as the faces of the franchise moving forward, that's unlikely.

But if it were to happen, the position opened up in the outfield could be used as a trial ground for any and all of these young players; the hope would be to find a capable starter amongst all this depth, but the main goal in trading Pence or Bourn would be to fill a position (like shortstop, second base, or starting pitcher) where we have more need with a good young player.

Make a position change.

While the organization has plenty of outfield depth, it's thin in the infield at the upper levels of the farm system.  If the Astros think an athletic player like Shuck or Bogusevic could play second base, it might be worth a shot.  We're also facing a situation where Lance Berkman may depart in the off-season; if that happens, first base may be filled via open tryouts in spring training next season, involving all of these outfielders, plus other players like Koby Clemens.

Another possibility could be to convert Carlos Lee to first base.  His range might not be as crippling there, and that would open a hole in left field, where the bats of all of these players would play better than at first base.  If we started next season with Lee at first base and Bogusevic in left field, I wouldn't be opposed to that arrangement at all.

At the same time, a player like Shuck has a lot more value at second base than in left field, so a position change could be explored in addition to another above move, regardless.

What moves are the Astros likely to make?

I don't consider it particularly plausible that the Astros would trade away Hunter Pence or Michael Bourn.  They would probably have to be blown away by the offer to make such a deal.  A lesser trade might be more likely, involving one of the bench outfielders or minor league players.  I just hope they don't sell any of them for cash considerations (and I don't think they will).

Moving Carlos Lee to first might be a possibility, as would position changes for some of these other players.

This might be a good problem to have (for once), but it still needs to be dealt with.  What would you like to see the Astros do?

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best bench guy i think is delome i think bougie has starter pontential because of the pos change he is still getting better and i think next year will be make or break year for him . JD if he hits for avg and power like he has he should get a chance in left because if he keeps up this pace he is at the he is a mlb all star LF , shuck if he can play second then that adds value i think at the top of the order . i love pence bot bourn has more value i think and for the right price pence should be had someone compared kobe to dunn i think thats exactly what he is going to turn out to be but a better on base psg point is keep born untill jay austin is ready try to trade lee for a bag of chips i mean someone will want him just not now maybe in the off season get as much piching as you can and trust me we will be back in the playoffs

by Rupert Sanchez on Jul 24, 2010 12:37 PM CDT reply actions  

Moves

Grocery boy should bite the bullet and just cut El Elefante (aka Fat Bastard). That would allow the team to utilize J.B. on an everyday basis in LF and bring up one of the younger OF’s from RR . Second, with Berkman most likely leaving via a trade this season or by free agency after the season, this would allow another of the young OF at RR to try and convert to 1b. I’d rather watch this team struggle the next two seasons while the younger guys get their chance to prove themselves in the show.
I’m not really sold on clemens being the answer at 1b. He tends to K too much (100+) and his BA hovers around .260. Although, we don’t have true 1b waiting in the wings so might as well let him get his shot too.
J.D. Martinez should start next season at CC and if he tears up the TX League like he did the SAL, then shoot him up to RR quickly. No need to rush him though as he is only 22 right now. He started to show some power before being promoted CC, so with his Avg. and beginning to show signs of power a change of position might be a smart move with him.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 12:40 PM CDT reply actions  

I like the idea of trying how Bogusevic would do at 2nd.

by PeteyNhtown on Jul 24, 2010 12:48 PM CDT reply actions  

its an interesting thought

but hes 26 already and has been learning the ropes of the outfield. So its most likely too late at this point to transition him again.

by Astrofan on Jul 24, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

It would definitely be interesting to see Bogusevic at 2nd. I haven’t seen a lefty play there since tee ball.

by BoxyBrown on Jul 24, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bogusevic

At 6’3" and being a lefty, 1b could also be possibility

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 12:51 PM CDT reply actions  

I know they have played Bogey at 1B some. I’m doubtful as to whether he has enough bat to hold down the position, though. I suppose he could be a James Loney type at the high end.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you’re referring to his power you might be right. Although I would take a 1b w/ a high avg. ala Olerud and W.Clark at the ends of their careers

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lefty at 2b?

I’ve never heard of a left handed throwing middle infielder

by The Advocate on Jul 24, 2010 1:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

why not? there have been lefty catchers, why a southpaw at 2b? i joke of course

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, him throwing lefty slipped my mind. My mistake.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your not the only one that forgot. Oops…..my bad fellas.

by PeteyNhtown on Jul 24, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

2B

Wade needs to promote Altuve to CC and see how he does. He young has some pop in his bat and moves pretty well.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 12:54 PM CDT reply actions  

I would probably promote Albert Cartwright to Corpus Christi and Jose Altuve to Lancaster.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I forgot about Cartwright. He’s having a pretty a good season in his own right. Guess this is actually a good dlimma for once. I just like Altuve even considering his lack of height.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 12:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Their numbers are almost identical although Cartwright is in Lancaster which I have heard is a hitters league

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Cartwright’s home/away splits are the reason I’m not as high on him as Altuve, in addition to him being older for his level. Still, he’s having a good year, and I’d like to see what he can do at Corpus Christi. Getting Altuve up to Lancaster would be sufficient progress for this season.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Either one of them would be an upgrade over what’s here in CC. 2B here is somewhat lacking.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:22 PM CDT reply actions  

what we need is to get rid of lee first , we need to find out what we have in those guys clemens can be at first the guy has pop and is 23 he also has a solid obp with a litle help he can get the AVG up and he will be a solid mlb 1b i think shuck is the best option at second for now he and bourn 1 and 2 in the lineup is solid now for left field like i said if JD keeps it up he gets a shot at camp he has the most up side of any of these guys bogie and delome has 4rth outfielder writing all over him allthough i think bogie still has some up side the guy has been an everyday player only two years now so he needs time and ithink next year is the year he has been getting better all year so yea

by Rupert Sanchez on Jul 24, 2010 1:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Clemens needs to cut down on the K’s though. Bogusevic has fewer K’s in more AB’s. Plus I like the fact that he’s 6’3" and LH while Clemens is 5’11". Bogusevic has the reach and and hits for a higher Avg. and he’s doing all this on a team that’s actually provides him little to no protection and has been depleted by major league team. I say let the two of them fight it out in the spring.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or move Carlos Lee to first and put Bogey in left field while Clemens works on his plate discipline at AAA.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

that would work too. I just say cut Lee. I hate the fact that bc he’s out in LF picking daisies (big lack of any kind of speed) teams can score a runner from second on a single to LF every time. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and take the financial hit. Ask Flozell about it. He became too slow and couldn’t block at a high level and they let him go and are gonna have to eat his contract tha he signed only a couple of yrs ago.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:41 PM CDT reply actions  

If Drayton feels sorry for El Elefante he could always make him a bagger at a store or let him sell souvenirs out on the concourse at MMP.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 1:47 PM CDT reply actions  

so how much money do most bench players get traded for when they say cash considerations?

by Brian Kallina on Jul 24, 2010 2:23 PM CDT reply actions  

depends on the player and the situation i would say

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

How does Jason Bourgeois fit into the picture?

Assuming Carlos Lee is gone or to first , does jason Bourgeois inherit left or does he remain the fourth or fith fielder while someone else on the lists above become the main left field starter?

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 24, 2010 2:33 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm not sure, honestly.

I’d assume he at least stays on the big league roster in a bench role, given the usefulness he’s shown, but who knows. I think he could start, but he’d be better in center field than out in left.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

That would make sense to me but then again with the Astros who knows what is going to happen

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 2:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Jon Jay....

is playing today (Sat.) and now is up to a .391 ave. This is in about 90 ABs. Ryan Ludwick just got off the DL and I thought that might mean Jay would be sent down or benched, but Ludwick is in RF, and Jay is in CF. BTW, he’s 25 years old. That’s younger than Boggy and DeLomme.

by JayAir on Jul 24, 2010 3:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah but we have JD Martinez in CC whos batting .354 or so and is still shy of 23 I believe. Plus all the guys at RR and also in the lower ranks. We have a plethora of OF’s in the organization.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sample size

As you said, it’s only 90 at-bats. I’d bet a lot of money he won’t continue to hit anywhere close to this well.

He’s a career .301/.367/.432 hitter in the minors, compared to Bogey’s .293/.364/.422. Yes, Bogey is one year older, but remember that he just converted from pitcher and has had a lot less experience as a hitter than Jon Jay.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jay cannot hit lefthanded pitching. (From that perspective, Bogusevic has an advantage, since he seems to hit lefties and righties about the same—actually lefties a little better.) Jay’s current batting average doesn’t appear to be sustainable. And LaRussa has used him almost exclusively against RHPs, which helps his batting stats. Jay is a nice outfield piece if you need a platoon player. He can hit righthanders well.

by clack on Jul 24, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with trading any of the AA or AAA outfielders is that most teams have several guys of their caliber already in their system. I just don’t see any of them netting anything of value in return right now. None of these guys are showing enough at AA or AAA yet to think that they can be ML hitters in corner outfield positions. When one of them puts together a .920 – 1.0+ OPS for a season in AA or AAA, I will start to get excited. (This is probably the reason we all wanted to see Martinez in AA.) If you want to see what I mean, look at the AA/AAA outfielders’ MLE’s right now. Bogusevic is having an improved season in AAA, but his MLE is a .251 BA and a .665 OPS. Locke’s MLE is .225 and .625. I’m not saying major league equivalent calculations are always good forecasts, but I use it to show why their current performance isn’t going to impress any other teams.

The best course is keep ’em all and hope one of them turns into something.

by clack on Jul 24, 2010 3:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Trouble is, we have a lot of outfielders in the system who need to move up. What do we do with them all? Just hold everybody back? Make some guys fourth/fifth outfielders and limit their plate appearances?

In terms of Drew Locke, he’s getting to the point where he’s an AAAA type guy, I guess. He could be a bench outfielder, but he’s not an asset we really need to worry about saving. Brian Bogusevic will be in the same position soon if he doesn’t get a big league job next year.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, some may eventually get cut. Guys like Yordany Ramirez have probably been given enough time to show what they can do. For the older guys, like Locke and Bogusevic, I think you give them every chance to win a back up slot on the major league team, and if they can’t win a ML slot, they will start to turn into AAAA players at Round Rock. I’m not sure that Bourgeois would beat them out next spring.

by clack on Jul 24, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

He does have the experience edge over them having played for a couple of other teams before coming home to Houston. The good thing about Bourgeois is that he can play all the outfield positions and his speed.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Personally Im hoping Bogusevic shows something in the spring. Is he elegible or likely to go to the AFL this year? The extra ABs couldnt hurt.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 3:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Logjam!!!!?????

Okay maybe I’m being crazy here, but I would hardly consider this a logjam! The best outfielder has an ops of .753. Carlos Lee is signed for like a million years and is the worst left fielder in baseball. Bourn is a spectacular defender that has the bat of a 4th out fielder. There is no impact bat in the system. This is hardly a logjam. The Stros should be up for anything. Pence looks like a guy with no plate discipline and a little above league average bat. He’s basically Xavier Nady. Now the Cards are not a good team to trade with and Jon Jay would be a terrible to piece to add, but let’s not act like this system has some kind of depth. The Stros need to be creative and obtain the best prospects they can. If they need to take on money then do it. The Dodgers are a way better trade partner.

by Stoiber on Jul 24, 2010 3:47 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree with what you are saying to a certain extent. But I disagree with comparing Pence to the X-man. Pence is a good defensive outfielder in the corners. Nady is not. Also, Nady is just a platoon player as a hitter. Pence hits LHPs better than righties, but his offense is acceptable from both type pitchers. I think Pence’s value is as an above average bat with good defensive skills.

by clack on Jul 24, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

He also has the on thing that no one else on this team has… HEART

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

 You need to remember that Pence has not had anyone hitting in front or behind him for most of the season plus Puma being out at the beginning of the season put more pressure on him. Plus he is never going to be a 30/30 guy or hit .330. He ‘s a toolsy OF w/ some speed and an above avg arm. We get some better hitters in the lineup and both SHOULD hit better than they currently are.
The “logjam” comes from the number of OF’s that the Stros have in the system right now.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 4:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Jon Jay

according to Stark I believe, was in a package that the Cards offered for Oswalt. Jon Jay and Brendan Ryan. Tim Purpura would have jumped all over that.

by Astrofan on Jul 24, 2010 4:44 PM CDT reply actions  

I don’t think it would be a bad idea to acquire more outfielders. None of the guys in AAA look to be anything more than backups.(I am curious to see if Bogusevic continues to develop) Hopefully, guys at the lower levels will turn into impact bats, but there’s no telling when they will be ready. The round rock outfield is just kind of a horrible reminder of the years of the lost drafts.

by MadMartygan on Jul 24, 2010 4:49 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

It’s not a bad idea to acquire outfielders, but they need to be potential impact bats. That’s what I was trying to get across. We don’t need outfield quantity. We need quality.

by OremLK on Jul 24, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah. Agreed.

by MadMartygan on Jul 24, 2010 5:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

We may have quality in the ranks (lower ranks), they are just all really young at the moment.

by StrosSouth on Jul 24, 2010 4:55 PM CDT reply actions  

Let’s just hope Wade doesn’t decide to go out and get a backup veteran outfielder and instead allow someone from the minors step up and claim the backup role.

by Timothy De Block on Jul 24, 2010 7:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Not intentionally, but...

you guys have poisoned the water around Jon Jay. I don’t know how many readers of this bloy there are, but a lot of them are being told that Jay is “terrible”, “a bench player”, etc. IF he was part of a package sent to the ‘Stros in exchange for Roy, many fans who read this type of blog would instantly be against. No fair. He would deserve a chance to show his stuff. Also, "he can’t hit lefties" was mentioned. Can he place his own name on the Cards lineup card? Of course not. He can only play when LaRussa decides to play him. Against lefties so far he’s hitting .500, 3 for 6. Sounds pretty good to me. But what do I know? Not much, just like the rest of the bloggers here. And what exactly is “a potential impact bat”? Can you get any more vague? Jay also, BYW walks almost as often as he strikes out.

by JayAir on Jul 25, 2010 12:35 PM CDT reply actions  

3 for 6 is not a reliable sample, and the most telling thing to me is that it shows LaRussa has intentionally tried to shield him from LHP. In 64 at bats in AAA this year, Jay has the following line against LHP: .180, .219, .230, .449. That contrasts to a .408 BA and 1.128 OPS vs. RHP. In his minor league career (401 at bats), Jay has a .259, .336, .349, .685 vs. LHP, compared to .830 OPS vs. RHP. That looks like a candidate to be a platoon player, and TLR, who is a smart baseball guy, is using him that way. This blog leans toward statistical analysis, and that’s how we generally evaluate players here. I’m not saying Jon Jay is a bad player—in fact, I think he is a fairly useful player, particularly if he is paired in a platoon. But he doesn’t profile as a high level prospect.

by clack on Jul 25, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

In addition to what clack said

I don’t think anybody has said Jon Jay is a terrible player. Certainly nobody has been trying to “poison the water against him”.

As I’ve said repeatedly, I like Jon Jay. But he is what he is; a grade C+ prospect whose ceiling is probably (not definitely, but probably) as a bench or platoon player.

But the fact is, the Astros have no need for him. We have lots of guys like that already just waiting for their shot in the big leagues.

by OremLK on Jul 25, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

From Stoiber above

“….Jon Jay would be a terrible piece to add”. Did you notice he started tonight’s game w/a triple and scored shortly thereafter? Oh, he’s not 3 for 6 anymore. LaRussa must’ve given him another start against a lefty. Now, he’s 5 for 9, pushing .500.

Thanks, I’ll shut up now.

by JayAir on Jul 25, 2010 8:18 PM CDT reply actions  

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