If The Astros Trade With the Cardinals, Here Is What I Want
For the record, I am not on board with trading Roy Oswalt to the Cardinals. I don't like the idea at all. But if you believe the rumor mill, a combination of factors have pushed the Astros in that direction today. One, he would waive his no trade clause to go there. Two, he would do it without demanding that his 2012 option be guaranteed (which might be torpedoing the deal with Philadelphia). Three... well, they apparently want him. Probably quite a lot, if they are indeed the current front runners.
The problem is, St. Louis' farm system sucks. It sucks a lot. It's very similar to ours in a lot of ways, but with fewer young, high upside potential blue chip prospects (like Jiovanni Mier and Jay Austin). So I took painstaking care, by which I mean spending a few hours looking at top prospect lists, stats, and scouting reports and assuming that makes me an expert... and came up with seven players who interest me.
I want them all, or at least most of them, including Shelby Miller. That's how much I hate the idea of trading with St. Louis. If they aren't willing to basically allow the Astros to pick and choose anything they want out of their minor league system, I hope Ed Wade walks away and finds somebody else to trade with.
With that out of the way, here's my list, which may or may not be similar to Wade's.
- Shelby Miller, RHP (19, A). Miller is the only blue chip prospect in the Cardinals' system. He is a young starting pitcher with potential top of the rotation stuff; a plus fastball, a plus curve, and the ability to throw strikes. He's far from the majors, but like Jordan Lyles, don't be surprised if he's a fast mover.
- Allen Craig, 1B/3B/OF (25, AAA). Craig has been major league ready for a couple of years now, but there's just one problem: His best position is first base, and, well... the Cardinals kind of have that covered. He's hit at every level and he's doing it again this year at AAA. He profiles as an everyday first baseman; probably not a star type hitter, but you never know. He could step in to replace Lance Berkman next season.
- Tyler Greene, SS (26, MLB). Look, I know Greene has had some defensive lowlights against us, but he can hit, and defensive statistics like Defensive Runs Saved, UZR, and TotalZone like his defense. Angel Sanchez might be a long-term solution at shortstop, but I'm not betting on it. Even if he is, Greene can play second base, and would probably be better there than Jeff Keppinger.
- Scott Gorgen, RHP (23, AA). Gorgen is a very undersized starting pitcher (5'10") who throws a sinker around 90-91mph but has plus secondary stuff and pitchability. He was having a great season at AA before injury derailed it, and he's currently working his way back in rehab. Conventional wisdom would suggest that a guy his size can't start in the long run, and indeed, he has had some injury problems. However, I like his results--he's struck out plenty of batters wherever he's gone without walking too many. And everything about him screams "undervalued". I'd like to get him as a toss-in, because... why not? He's one of the few starting pitchers in the Cardinals' system who has actually performed well.
- Adam Ottavino, RHP (24, AAA). Another boom-or-bust guy, Ottavino interests me because he looks like a guy who always struggled with one crippling problem (control) and this season it seems to have finally clicked for him. He has a plus fastball, slider, and a solid changeup, and good size (6'5"), but until this year, he never had a season in which he walked fewer than four batters per nine innings. This year, however, his walk rate is way down, while his strikeout rate is still solid. He could be a good middle rotation starter, or he could wind up in middle relief. EDIT: Just learned Ottavino is down with a shoulder injury and it may require surgery. That probably rules him out for a trade. Yet another reason not to trade with the Cards.
- Scott Schneider, RHP (22, A+). Basically the younger version of Gorgen, Schneider is another undersized righty, a six-footer with a low-90's sinker, a plus slider, and a changeup. I don't have a whole lot on him, but his results intrigue me; he strikes out plenty of hitters, gets lots of groundballs, and doesn't walk many. He's pitched both as a starter and in relief. His size suggests his future is in the bullpen, but don't write him off as a starter.
- Niko Vasquez, SS (21, A+). Vasquez was a high draft pick whose tools have always drawn praise from scouts, but whose results last season were very lackluster. This year, however, he's having a breakout season, batting for .814 OPS between low A and A-Advanced. He's a shortstop, but defensive issues will move him to second or third base in the long run. He has great patience and gets on base at a high rate, but he will take some strikeouts; he has a lot of power potential and has already realized much of it at an age when few batters do.
If I'm Ed Wade, not getting all four of Miller, Craig, Ottavino, and Vasquez is a dealbreaker. The two undersized righties are just throw-ins, and I could live with not getting Greene, since I'm not that high on him anyway. But those first four are a must.
Cardinals fans will think this is too high a price to ask. That's exactly why I don't want to trade Oswalt to them; their farm is weak, so they are going to overvalue what assets they do have. Beyond that, the idea of seeing Roy in a Cardinals uniform is abhorrent to me, as I'm sure it is to many of us, so I want to make them pay extra for the privilege.
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I was hoping...
that any deal w/ the Cardinals would include Jon Jay, left-handed outfielder w/tools. He’s young, seems to be very athletic, and a product of a very good college program, the Miami Hurricanes.
I like Jon Jay, but I don’t see him as being much better than our many other options, and there’s no place on this team for a 25-year old outfielder to play. He’d basically end up rotting in AAA with Brian Bogusevic, Drew Locke, Collin DeLome, and next year, Jack Shuck, Jon Gaston, and J.D. Martinez.
Jon Jay is a 4th outfielder, plain and simple
he’s having a great run right now that is entirely unsustainable, but what a ride it’s been.
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
Austin Wilson, please don't be a tease!
I think Jay can be a decent platoon player in the outfield, but, again, that is the same as a 4th outfielder. He has a lot of trouble with LHP; he hit .180 with a .449 OPS against LHP in AAA. LaRussa has done a nice job of shielding him from LHP in the majors, and that probably helped him go on a good little hitting tear in the majors this year.
I’m not a fan of Tyler Greene, nor does it seem like he has a following at vivaelbirdos. I would probably take David Freese over him, though both are really AAAA players.
The only thing which would make me feel better about a Cardinals trade is if Colby Rasmus was part of the deal, and that’s never happening.
I will say this, it’s possible that trading Oswalt to the Cardinals could make it more difficult to sign Albert Pujols, or if they did re-sign Pujols, the payroll would crush the Cardinals’ future payroll flexibility.
Not high on him either. I don’t think he quite qualifies as AAAA, but pretty close. If they included him as a throw-in, I think he’s better than the other AAAA options we’ve been using in our infield.
We basically already have our own David Freese in Chris Johnson, so I don’t really feel like kicking out an Astro for a Cardinal who profiles as a similar player.
But yes, I would do Oswalt for Rasmus or Garcia straight-up in a heartbeat, but like you said…. it’s never happening.
Oswalt for Garcia and Miller might be acceptable. No outfielders, though. Why do we need more with the Buffalo in left?
by David Coleman on Jul 22, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t really like it either, but getting two mid-rotation starters would be somewhat palatable. Except that I have doubts Garcia can sustain this or that Miller won’t throw his arm out in a year or two.
by David Coleman on Jul 22, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
its my birthday
so i hope if he gets traded its to the phils
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 22, 2010 3:55 PM CDT reply actions
check out
1000 plus comments in oswalt thread…also have his pic as the probable pitchers for hamels and wainwright in the gamethread for them for todays game
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 22, 2010 4:29 PM CDT reply actions
Laughed at this comment titled “Mother of God:”
revised lineup:
oswalt – 2B
oswalt – CF
oswalt – 1B
oswalt – LF
oswalt – RF
oswalt – C
oswalt – 3B
oswalt – SS
wainwright (fuck you) – P
Here is the 1000 or so comment article at vivaelbirdos referenced by EHTR. The article gives a good perspective from the Cardinals’ side, and the comments span the horizon with some fans hot on Oswalt and some saying that the Cards shouldn’t send anything but an organizational minor leaguer for him.
Miller and 3 other guys on that list would be okay…I guess. Nowhere near what was talked about in the other thread regarding what the Phillies were supposedly offering, but near fair value at least. I’ve said all along, anything less than 1 top 100 prospect upper level prospect, 1 B grade upper level prospect, and 1 high upside guy is not worth doing. If you can justify immediatly moving Miller to AA, throw in Craig (upper level B) and Vasquez (high upside), I’d say it’s an ok deal.
Latest I saw
Cards want a chunk of his salary paid and are offering 2 guys from the major league roster. That’s Skip, Jon Jay, Craig or similar. I’d say odds of that being a deal are close to zero.
Yeah
Unless one of the two guys is Jaime Garcia (which wouldn’t make sense from the Cards perspective)… no thanks. Well, Allen Craig is okay but not as a centerpiece.
Astros really like Miller
This comes from Justice’s blog. He talked to McLane, and Drayton remembers Shelby Miller, and says the Astros were focused on drafting him when the Cardinals took him with the 19th pick in 2009:
‘’Oh were we disappointed,’’ Drayton McLane said.
Justice said that getting Miller might be enough to overcome their resistance to trading in-division. At least 1 or 2 major league ready prospects would have to accompany him to the Astros, according to Justice.
Justice seems to think that a Cardinals trade is a long shot, because Oswalt may not fit into the Cardinals’ budget.
The Astros don't have to deal Oswalt
And certainly not to the Cardinals. If that’s the kind of return that is offered, they certainly won’t.
Given all the talk around Miller, I’m pretty convinced that he’s already been offered, but the sticking point is contractual issues and what else comes in the deal.
Yes they do
They’ve had to deal veterans for years, but they’re far too stupid to realize it. This is why they suck and their farm sucks. They keep holding onto these worthless veterans like they’re going to be competitive anytime soon.
They are one of the worst run franchises in the game. Roy is an Astro legend, but that won’t help them win 3-5 years down the road so they need to pull in what they can for him.
He can be dealt in the offseason or even next year's deadline.
If the return isn’t good enough, that’s probably what will happen, and maybe after another few months here he will be ready to loosen up his demands.
Anyway, he doesn’t have to be traded to the Cardinals. Even if they’re his preferred destination, I don’t think he’ll turn down the opportunity to go to another contender when it comes down to the wire.
Not necessarily
Part of the reason teams are scared of taking him back is the contract. Less money left on it, more bidders, drives up the price. Also, I feel he will continue to pitch as well as he has the first half of this year, which will increase his value.
Pitchers age different than hitters so it is plausible that Roy could be around in 3-5 years and still be a productive contributor on a contending team.
Oswalts only 32 so for 3-5 years puts him between 35 and 37.
Jamie Moyer, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Joe Niekro, Kenny Rogers all pitched into their 40’s.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow
You named 8 pitchers out of how many? I’m not quite sold there. Five of them were Hall of Famers, another was a knuckleballer and at least one was under suspicion of PEDs.
And let’s be honest about Moyer, he’s a freak of nature for even being out there but he’s not good at all. He’s had good games, but he has essentially been a 5.00 ERA for four of the seven years since eclipsing 40 years old.
I really didn’t care to sit here all day looking for pitchers who ever played the game into their 40’s, those 8 just came off the top of my head. I’m sure others could be pointed out.
The point being that pitcher’s can be productive into their late 30’sa and early 40’s. An argument can also be made that Roy is on the same level as several of those pitchers. Look at Andy Pettite he’s 38 and still a productive member of the Yankees, injury aside.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You drop the age requirement to 35 and there are 525 pitchers. For pitchers age 37 and up there are 263 of them.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
The point being that pitcher’s can be productive into their late 30’s and early 40’s.
Your argument was :
Roy is an Astro legend, but that won’t help them win 3-5 years down the road
The results you’ve given me shows it is plausible for a pitcher of Roy’s caliber to pitch into his late 30’s and 40’s.
I just realized that you set your years for 1980 to 2010 which I did not. In any case if you go back to 1901 for pitchers over 40 with a ERA+ above 100 and 100 IP you get 80 pitchers.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Anything past 1980 is pretty useless
As the era was entirely different.
It’s PLAUSIBLE, but it’s not LIKELY. That’s the difference that you’re failing to understand. Planning for Roy-O to be a part of their next winning team is stupid considering they are at least 3 years away. There’s no other way to say it. It’d be stupid of Wade.
Trading him and taking a less than an acceptable deal is also stupid.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
The idea of acceptable around here is rather absurd, though. It’s not stupid to try and start restocking the god awful system by trading one of their only assets.
He’s not going to bring in 2 blue chippers, they’d be lucky to get one and some parts. They really, really would. I’m not sure how yall don’t see that.
I think most of the people here would be happy with one blue chip prospect and two or three interesting grade C guys with some upside.
Of course we are hoping for more. We are fans. Furthermore, the Astros appear to be asking for more than that, too.
That doesn’t mean that we, and the Astros, wouldn’t be satisfied with less.
and brendan ryan and john jay will help them?
if that’s the return, that’s no real help. the Astros are better off waiting until the off-season. That’s not stupidity, that’s just good business sense.
It would have to have been Shelby Miller, Brendan Ryan, and Jon Jay, right…? There is no way the Astros would even be talking to the Cardinals if that’s the quality of offer they were getting. I mean, Brendan Ryan = Tommy Manzella, and Jon Jay = Brian Bogusevic. We have absolutely zero need for either player.
You guys would do well with something like...
Greene – immediate upgrade on Manzella. They’re about equal in SS defense according to TZ, with Greene being the far better hitter (.390wOBA in AAA in 2009) and a plus baserunner (31 steals/3 CS). Manzella was at .338 wOBA in 2009 at AAA.
Allen Craig – Lance’s replacement next year. .400wOBA in AAA last year. Cards minor-league player of the year last year.
Lance Lynn – Cards No. 1 prospect according to Fangraphs starting the year. Starter at AAA – recent supplemental rd. pick who has moved fast. Will be a ML pitcher – probably 3rd starter upside.
Perhaps throw in a lower level relief arm.
I’d love it if the Stros took Ryan rather than Greene. Ryan is the superior defender (2.7WAR last year, based mainly on defense) but I like Greene better. (Manzella will never sniff 2.7 WAR)
If I’m the Cards, I’d only trade Shelby Miller for Haren, not Oswalt, unless the Stros are eating serious salary (and maybe not even then). Miller is equal to or a better prospect than Jordan Lyles (better fastball).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 23, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
oswalt
oswalt would be a luxury for the cardinals. they need to go after a ss like bartlett of tb.
dont see them giving up miller or garcia and hopefully not jay.
oswalt holds all the cards no pun intended.. so i dont see the astros holding up the cardinals.
This is about as delusional as Wade
so I guess it fits. I think this article should be submitted to The Onion. Astros fans are going to be seriously disappointed if they think the team will get anything remotely close to this or the absurd package that Snake Diggity outlined.
Talk about overvaluing your resources. I love Roy-O, but there is absolutely no way he’s going to pull more than Cliff Lee. Dream on, folks.
Sounds like I’m not the only one overvaluing my home team’s assets.
Even if you sent over all seven of these players I’m not convinced that would be as good as Smoak + Beavan.
The Cardinals’ farm system is terrible.
I actually like Smoak but moving to Seattle seriously dents his value. He could be the next Casey Kotchman. Meanwhile Beavan is wildly overrated. A 5.6 K/9 in the minors? Ya, I’m all good on that. His control is very sharp, but he projects to be a sub-5.0 K guy at the majors with good control aka Carlos Silva.
Well
A terrible system is something the Astros are well versed in. And the Cardinals one isn’t very good, but why on Earth do you think the Astros could pull anything CLOSE to the absurd list you put together for a rental? Or if they do decide to do the option, then an overpaid SP for 2011?
SMH
Which is why the Astros will continue to blow. They refuse to deal parts that won’t be useful to their next winning team.
Was it satire to put together a 7-player list you wanted in return to stress your point that you don’t want to trade him to St. Louis or did a part of you really believe that it was at all viable?
Half and half
Partly I am very down on the value of most of these prospects… and these are the ones I liked the most out of your farm system. The only ones I feel have any real chance of becoming impact players are Miller and Vasquez. Craig could be a average starter… the rest have extremely marginal value in my opinion.
Why do you keep saying your?
Do you instantly think that because I disagree with you and think your expectations are a bit delusional that I’m a Cardinals fan?
I live in Austin. I’m a Tigers fan who watches a lot of Astros games when it comes to NL.
Look, you’re obviously looking for a fight. Let’s just keep the discussion rational. No name-calling.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I should apologize for assuming he was a Redbirds fan. It’s a grave insult, I know.
More seriously, yes, this article was intended to be part satirical and part informative. I don’t consider it likely that any seven players come back for Roy Oswalt because it looks like one team getting robbed and the other team making off like a bandit, even if only one of those prospects is a blue-chipper and the rest are not very good.
Mainly, I was trying to illustrate why St. Louis isn’t a good fit.
I’m not looking for a fight on any level, but I have no problem calling out a patently absurd notion when I see one. This would be one of those instances. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. He has his and expressed it and I’ve done the same. I’m trying to bring the discussion to a rational level which is why I’m bearing the bad news that there is no way in hell the Astros will get 7 prospects for Roy Oswalt.
I haven’t engaged in name-calling, either.
I don’t see any where he said that the Astros would get all 7 prospects.
came up with seven players who interest me.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I did point out that I wanted to get all or at least most of them. But it was more in an ironic, disparaging sense toward the St. Louis farm system.
I want them all, or at least most of them, including Shelby Miller. That’s how much I hate the idea of trading with St. Louis. If they aren’t willing to basically allow the Astros to pick and choose anything they want out of their minor league system, I hope Ed Wade walks away and finds somebody else to trade with.
Which is rude of me, but y’know, they’re our rivals, so it’s all in good fun.
But you should also realize that not all prospects are created equal. Greene is a borderline AAAA guy. Ottavino and Gorgen are injured low end grade C prospects. Schneider is a low end grade C prospect.
Vasquez is a grade C+ prospect with upside. Craig is a B- with a high floor but not much upside. Miller is the only blue chip prospect listed.
I won’t pretend that it’s a Rays or Rangers list of prospects. The leftovers in those systems are better than just about anything the Cards can put forward. I get that, but even still they won’t gut the sparse pickings of their farm to rent Oswalt.
But I get your overarching point that you don’t want them trading with StL. That’s fine, I could see myself reacting that way to trading Verlander to Minnesota in 6 years. I guess my main contention was that it wasn’t outright clear whether you were being 100% serious, 50% serious-50% satirical or 100% satirical. That’s what got me.
As OremLK just pointed out, his next sentence explains his motivation for writing that.
That’s how much I hate the idea of trading with St. Louis.
which goes back to the whole satire thing.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Point taken. I think some of the points you brought up are valid, as well. Just didn’t want this to devolve from where it’s at right now.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I will credit OremLK big time
For actually responding to the comments on his article. I find too often at SBN that you have a point of contention with someone on a piece and it goes unanswered usually because they know they were owned.
I don’t mind the volley with Orem. I wish he’d have made it clearer that it was satire to his readers who might not catch on, but otherwise I’m fine debating with him.
Another problem may have been that we’ve been talking about what a terrible fit the Cards farm system would be in previous threads, which spawned this story. If you came in without some of that background, I could see where taking it at face value would be patently ridiculous.
I’ll admit though, that I shook my head at his assertion that it’d take all seven of those players for me to like a trade with St. Louis. Not because it’d happen, but because I dislike their farm system that much.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
IMHO, the only acceptable Oswalt trade
We give: Oswalt, Lee and Berkman
We Get: Pujols, Holiday, and the Cards top 5 Minor League prospects.
That’s how much I hate the idea of sending the Wizard to any team in the central.
OU SUCKS!!!!!!
I'm a Cards fan
I don’t believe I have any illusions about our farm system. We depleted it last year when we traded for Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa.
That being said, I think you’re undervaluing Roy Oswalt’s cost. Just Shelby Miller is worth more than Oswalt based on surplus value. If you don’t accept surplus value, or any sabermetrics, really, that’s fine, too.
Oswalt is a $15+ million dollar on a team that is not contending. They aren’t contending this year. They’re unlikely to contend over the next two years (though I could be wrong about anything). Moving that contract is in the best interest of the team.
By all indications, most teams are leery about adding payroll this year, in a still unsettled economy. Teams that aren’t competitive are excited about the prospect of shedding payroll. We’re not just trading prospects for Roy Oswalt, we’re trading prospects that don’t require a lot of capital for Roy Oswalt and the obligation to pay Roy Oswalt.
It’s certainly not as simple as, “who’s the better player. Who will produce more numbers going forward.” Like any kind of investment, cost is a relevant consideration. Exxon might be a “better” company than Breitburn, but which one can I get at a better discount relative to their value?
It’s also about who’s going to offer the better deal.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
And no one is beating down Houston's door
because it’s more about Oswalt’s cost than his production on the field.
Sounds like a bunch of teams have interest
you have no idea. That may not stop you from claiming it though.
That's true
and that’s a good point.
I can’t confirm this, but talk radio in St. Louis is indicating that Oswalt doesn’t want to go to Philly, though. He doesn’t want to go to NY, either. Only teams in contention are going to be interested.
So you have to get the best deal you can from a place that he’ll go. But I agree, you have to take the best deal that’s workable. That might not be St. Louis, I honestly don’t know.
I agree
It shouldn’t make Houston fans happy, but he’s earned the right to have some say over where he goes. He wants to contend, he wants to be in the American league, and he wants to be in the midwest. I can only think of one team that gives him all those things.
From everything I’ve read, Oswalt is willing to go to any team that has a chance at the playoffs. The sticking point is the money. For the places he’d rather not be (NY, Philly), he’s going to make them pay. For the places he likes (St. Louis), he’s willing to work out the money. Make no mistake, he wants out. The Astros will trade him. But, the market is bigger than you may be making it out to be.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
That may be
I don’t know. I don’t have any personal knowledge of the situation. But the St. Louis media types on talk radio here in St. Louis have painted a picture that makes it seem like Roiswalt doesn’t want to go the east coast. Like I said, they could be wrong, and I’m not accepting it as a fact.
I don't think he's thrilled with the idea
But he already basically said he would be willing to go to Philly, if they picked up his 2012 option.
He said he’d restructure his deal to play with the Cardinals but now it sounds like he’d still want the option picked up even with St. Louis.
I gotcha
I didn’t know he said that. I’m not sure that’s being reported in St. Louis, yet.
Perhaps any team that is in the National League and meets his specific desires on location and picking up the option. He’s not completely open to any contender. That’s just not true.
As you said earlier, this would be a lot easier if he came out and told people which teams he would reject. While reports claimed a while back that he wouldn’t got to the White Sox, but it wasn’t from Roy himself. He’s been so wishy-washy about this whole thing. That’s why a firm list would be nice.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
The Astros also have the option to move him in the off season as Halladay was this past off season. There was plenty of talk last season about Roy Halladay being moved but it ended up being the off season.
There’s also nothing that says Roy won’t change his mind when the trade deadline comes closer and Roy is presented with staying with the Astros are going to another contender.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 23, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
We do use surplus value quite a bit around here. Certainly, Oswalt’s surplus doesn’t warrant more than a top 10 pitcher in a deal, if that, but you have to factor in that extra year on his contract. Instead of being a deterrent, that might be what makes a team slighty overpay, since he’s not a straight-up half-season rental. Plus, he’s a name who’s pitched in the post-season. Like it or not, teams will pay extra for that experience.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I honestly
wasn’t trying to sound arrogant with that comment. I know less than the average guy about sabermetrics. I hope it wasn’t taken that way. If so, unintentional.
Wasn’t taken that way, and didn’t mean to some off defensive. It’s just a favorite tool of mine and I didn’t want it to seem like we hadn’t considered those angles.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
cards fan opinion
miller is obviously the center piece. with the cards looking at giving pujols a humongous raise in the near future, it does not make a whole lot of sense to deal him. they’ll need his cheap 6 years. however, the cards don’t have enough to get a deal done without including him.
some guys you may have overlooked:
mitch boggs – currently in the cards pen, but i would assume is available in a trade. was a starter in the minors. could be given another shot at starting but has looked REALLY good in the pen. possible closer type, solid set up man. pitchfx data says his average fastball is 95.8 mph. if i were the astros, after miller i’d ask for this guy. high likelihood he can help your team. craig, jay and tyler greene all look like fringe starters to me…useful while cheap but more likely to be bench/platoon players on a good team.
fernando salas and eduardo sanchez – good relief prospects. salas is ready now, sanchez is 21 and getting his first taste of AAA.. its not sexy getting a reliever back for oswalt, but as with boggs there is a much higher likelihood of these guys will make an impact in the majors.
matt carpenter – bill mueller type 3b. good average and obp, below average power for a 3b. someone you ask for as a throw in and hope he pans out.
lance lynn – numbers arent great now. could be an innings eating starter. in AAA now. gorgen would be a better choice if he wasnt injured.
while i think the cards have enough prospects to trade for oswalt, i’m not sure they make the best trading partner. with guys like craig, jay, greene…its more about quantity than quality. although i love miller, i am not sure thats enough to deal your ace pitcher to your division rival.
I'm not
a GM and no one has ever invited me to be one. But I don’t do the deal if I have to include Miller. There are no guarantees with prospects, but there’s a shortage of high upside guys like Miller. He’s the only one in the Cards system. The new reality is people have to build teams through farm systems (unless you can outspend everyone). The Cards need to commit to doing that.
miller
the only way i (as the hypothetical cards gm) would include miller is if the stros are kicking in cash. oswalt’s salary just puts the cards in a bad position financially. they likely have to trade ludwick in the offseason to clear room. does not seem like the astros want to do that so unless oswalt just puts his foot down and says he wont go anywhere but StL i don’t see this deal happening.
I don’t know that there is a package that the Astros could feasibly sign off on without Shelby Miller. The dropoff is just too steep. Yes, there’s some quantity, but it’s almost all grade C guys similar to what we already have in our system. The Astros have tons of grade C prospects. We need blue chippers who can make a real impact on our farm system.
That’s the biggest reason the Cards are a bad fit. Other teams have multiple blue chip prospects so they are more willing to part with one, maybe even two of them. The Cards only have one and they may be hesitant to include even him.
No one is willing to part with 2 and pay him. Many aren’t even willing to part with 1 because of the money.
I think the Astros would kick in money for two blue chip prospects; they said they would for the right deal.
To get 2 blue chips, I’m pretty sure they’d have to pay the whole thing. I haven’t seen anything to suggest they’ll get that kind of haul. I’d like to see em swindle someone like that, but I haven’t seen any rumors on it.
I’ve heard some rumors suggesting that it’s the kind of haul they are looking for but actually getting it as another story.
Asking is different from getting. I think we all know this, but these are negotiations. You start out high and settle for somewhere in the middle. The Astros are asking for two blue chippers and a ML player. They’ll probably settle for one blue chipper and a decent guy, whether it’s someone in the minors or a big leaguer. For instance, Miller and Boggs or MIller and Ryan make some sense as a compromise. I don’t like either of those trades, but the price seems reasonable.
by David Coleman on Jul 23, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure
I could see Wade being that nuts, but ya, they’re not going to pull that. I wouldn’t say I’m an Astros “fan”, but I follow the team pretty closely and I go to several Round Rock games so I’d love to see them pull a few blue chippers I could go watch.
I just want to see Ed Wade win a trade really big. Getting a great return would be awesome, but I also want to see a lot of people eating crow about him.
Another Cardinals perspective...
I’d say that generally, over at VEB, the reaction to a potential Oswalt acquisition is quite negative. He’s owed too much money, and we’re already struggling (as far as I can see) to afford Pujols’ forthcoming mega-contract (plus Holliday, plus Carpenter, plus raises for guys like Wainwright and Rasmus to come), so unless a huge payroll bump is in the offing, it’s hard to see how we can afford him.
All that said, it’s pretty clear we need all the upside we can get out of our farm system to put a competitive team on the field in future, so not only is the financial situation restrictive, but this, in turn, makes it harder to swallow trading away any of our (very few) B-level prospects or above. I’d say (assuming both teams sign all their top 5 draft picks this year) our farm system and yours are similar in terms of quality (mainly because you had such a poor draft this year), so, as the OP said, there’s really not a lot of blue-chippers in the Cards organisation.
For me, there’s also (quite naturally, I’m sure we’d be the same with Pujols or anyone else in our team) a fairly serious over-valuing of Oswalt here by you guys. He’s owed a LOT of money, he’s not a top-10 pitcher anymore and he’s got the sort of body and pitching repertoire that (subjectively) I could really see falling off a cliff at some point in the next couple of years. He’s been in decline since 2006 as far as I can see, and I’d think his contract is somewhat prohibitive.
Taking age and decline into account, it’s arguable he’s slightly over-paid. He looks like he’s about a 4 WAR guy now, and even giving him a charitable 3.5 WAR in 2011 and 3 WAR in 2012 (assuming his option is picked up), you’re still paying nearly $5m per win, which is a little ahead of the current market value from what I’ve heard. I think I said over at VEB that I wouldn’t want Oswalt if he was absolutely free in terms of prospects, because of his contract, unless that third year option was voided. In either case, I certainly wouldn’t want to give up more than a throw-in for him, even if we can afford to take on more payroll.
I’d think any deal including Shelby Miller would have to include a significant amount of money going in the other direction, and probably some restructuring of Oswalt’s 2012 option. I’d consider it straight-up if the Astros kicked back $5m per season.
The D-Backs just dealt Dan Haren, who is better, younger and cheaper than Oswalt, for a package that (in value terms) is probably similar to Shelby Miller alone, and with limited upside. They essentially got a young, about-to-become expensive 5th starter (Saunders), a young, cheap guy who might be a 5th starter (Rodriguez), a low-level B-ish prospect (Pat Corbin) whose ceiling is probably a mid-rotation type, and the 40th pick in last year’s draft (Tyler Skaggs) who is a lefty with the highest ceiling of the lot, but still somewhat less of a prospect than Miller.
Given that Oswalt doesn’t want to go to a lot of teams, and that the Cardinals are his #1 choice, it’s hard to see that you guys have a lot of wiggle-room in terms of what you get for him. You might well be right that it’s better off if you kept hold of him. Certainly, if you can get a prospect as good as Miller in return without having to eat any salary, it’s a massive win for you guys. I’d think if you can nullify the remaining ~$25m that you’ve still got to guarantee Roy, all emotions aside, it’d be a good business move even if you get nothing in return.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 26, 2010 4:45 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

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