To Trade or Not To Trade: Carlos Lee
Richard Justice and Sean Pendergast ripped into Carlos Lee pretty good this week. Justice opined that the Astros should trade Lee at any cost. That got me thinking and the Trade Value Calculator running. What would it cost to trade Carlos Lee?
Lee has two years with 18.5 million each year left on his contract. He also has a no-trade clause that expires after this season and will be a 10-5 player after next season, meaning he can veto any trade brought to him without the no-trade clause. Assuming he bounces back some from this recent, awful performance, Lee should end up with a negative 41.5 million dollar surplus value. That means if the Astros added two of the top 10 hitting prospects in baseball, they would just barely break even with Lee's value.
I mentioned that some commenters over at Beyond the Box Score had come up with some new calculations on trade value. Here is the first post, wondering about Victor Wang's initial prospect values and a second post adjusting the value based on the system used to estimate the player's WAR. I tried to incorporate this into this piece, but since it was mainly about MLBer for MLBer, I basically just valued down the cost per win to 4 for 4.5 million. We won't know what a win is worth on this upcoming open market, but that seemed like a safe middle ground.
So, what are we left with? Let's look at some of the players with bloated contracts and bad results who may be a fit in a trade for Carlos Lee.
Trying to match up players that are both as bad as Lee has been this season and that have unwieldy contracts is not easy. For instance, Jeff Francouer has been pretty awful for the Mets, but is still arbitration eligible, so is worth only minus-3.8 million. Similarly, Brian Bannister has been bad for the Royals, but only projects to be minus-1 million until he's a free agent.
Likewise, some truly godawful contracts have been playing better than Lee. For instance, Vernon Wells is owed 86 million dollars over the next four seasons, but has been a pretty productive player in 2010. The Blue Jays probably would not trade him straight up for Lee. Also, some bad contract/bad player combinations, like AJ Burnett this season, could have made the list but didn't. That's due to contract length, since Burnett will be a free agent after the season.
Where does that leave us? With these players as possible trade targets for a Lee swap meet.
Oliver Perez, LHP, New York Mets - With one year and 12 million left on his contract, Perez looks like a good candidate on surface to trade for Lee. But, his net value is only at minus-25.4M, which is a good 15 million less than Lee's. The Astros would have to throw something else into this trade to sweeten the deal.
Scott Kazmir, RHP, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim -The former Cy-Falls product hasn't been very good for two and a half seasons now, but was traded twice already in his career. He averaged 2.2 WAR over the last two seasons, but has fallen off a cliff in 2010. I projected him at -0.3 WAR this season and to post WARs of one for the next two. he's set to earn 12 million and 13.5 million over the next two seasons, bringing his negative value down to 25.2 million. It's close to Carlos-level, but not quite there.
Raul Ibanez, LF, Philadelphia Phillies - We know how much Ed Wade likes dealing with the Phillies. Wouldn't this make a lot of sense? Unfortunately, Ibanez only has negative 15.6 million in value over the rest of his contract. He's set to earn 11.5 million in 2011 and I've projected him to bounce back with a 2.0 WAR. If he's really fallen off a cliff with his offense, his value could go down, but he really doesn't match up to Lee's sub-value.
Rich Harden, LHP, Texas Rangers - The only way Harden makes this list is if the Rangers pick up his 11 million dollar option for 2011. That seems highly unlikely at this point, and I doubt the Rangers would welcome back Carlos in any case. Still, it's worth noting that Harden's negative value is at 13.7 million through his option year.
Kosuke Fukudome, OF, Chicago Cubs -The Japanese export has one year and 13.5 million left on his contract, but he's basically a fourth outfielder for the Cubs. He's looking at WARs right around one for this season and next, which means he'll have a negative 17.1M value. That's still well above Lee's value and would make a straight-up trade difficult.
Travis Hafner, DH, Cleveland Indians -When you're being paid seven figures just to hit, you damn-well better hit. Hafner hasn't really done that for a number of years now, which is why his value falls down to negative 26.8 million through the rest of his contract. Hafner will be paid 13 million in 2011 and 15.8 million in 2012. We're getting closer to Lee's value, but still not quite there. Plus, Hafner doesn't have a defensive position in Houston, which hurts his value even more.
Gil Meche, RHP, Kansas City Royals - For this one to work, you have to assume injuries will sap Meche of his previous effectiveness. I have him rebounding slightly to post a 0.1 WAR this season and a 1.0 WAR next season. But, since he averaged 4.7 WAR over the first two years of the contract. With those WAR projections and 12 million dollars coming his way in 2011, Meche has a negative value of 19 million. It's about half of Carlos' value, but the Astros could include someone like Keppinger to make it more palatable. Didn't the Royals gainfully employ Mark Grudzielanek for years?
Carlos Zambrano, RHP, Chicago Cubs - Of all the contracts on this list, Zambrano's comes the closest to matching Lee's for value. Z is owed 17.9 million next year, 18 million in 2012 and has a vesting player option for 19.25 million in 2013. Assuming he posts WARs around 2.0 for the next three seasons, that puts his value at negative 39.6 million. With Derrick Lee and Alfonso Soriano, the Cubs don't really have a roster to move Lee. We've already floated this trade scenario before, but it's worth noting again that Z is the only player who comes close to having Lee's negative value.
None of these teams would do this trade. But, if Lee is placed on waivers, anything is possible. I mean, did anyone expect the White Sox to pick up Alex Rios? Maybe the Padres get frisky and bring Carlos out west. If he's waived and a team claims him, he can't exercise his no-trade clause, right? He just has to be released or risk losing his money. At any rate, it's a little more daunting task to trade El Bufalo than Justice thinks, even if it is for a bag of baseballs. Last time I checked, those don't cost 40 million dollars.
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First, my recollection is that the player’s no trade clause can still be exercised in the waiver situation. Otherwise, teams would evade the no trade clauses routinely with waiver-trades after the July 31 deadline.
A lot of these trades wouldn’t make sense to me from the Astros’ perspective. If trading Lee doesn’t clear a lot of salary space, then you have to believe that the player who comes in return will be more useful to the Astros than Lee. And that’s not true of many of the players listed. For example, I probably wouldn’t trade Lee for Ibanez. Ibanez is a similar player to Lee, but he is a lot older than Lee, historically is a worse defender than Lee, and probably is more likely to fall off a cliff right now than Lee. I’ll take Lee over Ibanez going forward.
I think Lee has more value if he can go to the AL and become a DH. His negative defensive number no longer weights down his WAR. If I’m an AL GM looking for a DH, I would view Lee as a likely 3 WAR player at that position going forward. If the Astros pay 60% of his salary going forward, I probably take it. I have no idea if McLane is willing to pay that much of his salary or not, though.
In terms of the trades you’ve shown, I think the Mets possibly would be willing to make the Oliver Perez trade. The Mets’ organization is so frustrated with Perez, that they would put a high value on not having him around (addition by subtraction). However, this would depend on how attached they are to starting Ike Davis at 1st base. If they think Davis will stick there full time, they don’t have the need for Lee. Unfortunately, Perez’s tendence to be a walk machine would try our patience as fans, too.
I wouldn’t mind the Kazmir-Lee trade scenario. But that’s not saving much money on the payroll. It becomes more of dare trade.
I had approached this from more of a “If the Astros had to get rid of Lee, what would they have to do?” perspective. I actually don’t like any of these trades, really. There are a couple of guys who have shorter contracts, but this team doesn’t need more payroll, they need less.
I also considered the DH option raising his value, but couldn’t be sure how much of his decline this season was due to a general erosion of his skills and how much was bad luck.
by David Coleman on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you’re overestimating the amount of value Lee has as a DH. For example, David Ortiz batted for .794 OPS in 627 plate appearances last year, and he only produced 0.8 WAR.
Carlos Lee might be a little better than that (though I wouldn’t count on it given this year’s performance), but I still don’t see him producing more than 1.5 wins above replacement, more likely closer to 1 WAR.
If you think he will produce to the absolute peak of his potential—which I can promise you other GMs will not believe he’ll do, especially moving to the AL—then look at Ortiz’s 2008 numbers; .877 OPS, 2.0 WAR. I think it’s very unlikely that Lee is that good moving forward though.
Most of the reduction to Ortiz’s low value is due to a huge -15 run positional adjustment for the DH. And, frankly, that’s pretty ridiculous. The positional adjustment has always been a shaky abstraction. But to give a huge deduction because a guy isn’t athletic, but doesn’t ever get on the field because his position doesn’t involve fielding, is ridiculous, in my view. A better approach probably is to make the positional adjustment for DH based on average offensive stats associated with the position relative to other positions. I would expect Lee to post a .820 – .830 or so OPS on a forward-going basis. And you can always hope that Lee has a Vlad Guerrero type year. His WAR was 0.8 last year, but he is on course for a 4 WAR this season with the Rangers. Vlad is older than Carlos, and he is much more injury prone than Carlos.
I agree that the positional adjustments are pretty arbitrary and abstract, but at the same time, it feels intuitively correct that there would be a huge hit to positional value for a DH, since any batter can play the position and absolutely zero defensive value is being provided.
except zero defensive value is better than negative defensive value. Half the positional players in baseball are giving negative defensive value.
The alternative approach to WAR for positional valuation is to base it on offensive relationships among positions. Thus, the DH is expected to provide X% more offense than other positions, and the player’s value is increased or decreased based on offense relative to the expected norm for DH offensive value.
Hmmm…what about Carlos Lee and Brett Myers for Oliver Perez and a lower level C prospect with high upside?
The Mets get Myers to bolster their rotation for their playoff run (plus whatever Lee can add), we get somebody to plug in next year’s rotation and shed the worst contract in baseball.
I think the Mets are getting way too good a part of that bargain. Understand that Oliver Perez is really bad, causes every medical and team move to be monitored and disputed by Scott Boras, and is hated with a passion by fans. I wouldn’t be surprised if Perez is a bigger problem for the Mets than Lee is for the Astros. It doesn’t accomplish much for the Astros, because it doesn’t clear up much salary room next, and I would rather have Lee over Perez, as players, if you have to pay out $15+ million. Keep in mind that Myers is worth two draft choices if the Astros keep him and offer arbitration.
I don’t think anyone’s going to realistically touch Lee with a barge pole.
I’m sure Justice probably praised Lee’s $100m contract at the time.
though, i’m sure you can find a blog or an article he wrote a day or two later that is completely different….
by Reverend Koosh on Jul 22, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Id love to see kazmir for lee...
and it could be possible…
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Jul 22, 2010 2:05 PM CDT reply actions
at least this contract has provided a warning for all clubs, never to sign a guy with Lee’s body-type to a massive multi-year contract.
Oh..wait….
Good luck with that $125m contract Philly.
At least Howard is average at 1st and he seems to keep himself in decent shape. Terrible contract anyways, though. Fielder is the body type I would worry about
and he’s going to be looking for Howard money soon.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 22, 2010 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m not sure the warning should be aimed so much at body type as caliber of player. A $100+ million contract should be reserved for superstar type players. Throughout his career, Lee has been a good, but not great, hitter. At the time he signed, he never posted a .900 OPS. The only .900 OPS he has posted since then is an injury shortened 2008. At the time he signed, I recall writing that he is a good hitter, but not a premier offensive player who should command that kind of salary. If Lee played first base, I doubt we would be concerned about his body type.

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