Astros Spring Notebook
by David Coleman on Mar 17, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
in Editorials
38 comments
UPDATE: The Astros cut 12 players from camp Wednesday, reassigning Fernando Abad, Brian Bogusevic, Evan Englebrook, Chia-jen Lo, Matt Nevarez, Yordany Ramirez, Lou Santangelo, Wladimir Sutil, Polin Trinidad, Jose G Valdez and Henry Villar to minor league camp. The team also gave Alex Romero his unconditional release, meaning he becomes a free agent immediately. Any surprises here?
Let's lead this off with another note from Morgan Ensberg's excellent blog. In this one, he responds to a user's question about whether he used steroids with a very well-thought out and insightful answer.
The only thing I saw in the clubhouse was "greenies" which I have done about 10 times. Greenies are basically "uppers" and they didn’t do anything to me. I am not sure if that is a good thing.
I drink a ton of coffee and would drink something like 2 redbulls before a game if I felt sluggish.
I always use this analogy. In Hermosa Beach, where I grew up, there were a bunch of kids who smoked weed. I was asked if I wanted to smoke, but I said no and that was the end of it.
I eventually smoked in college about 30 times and I liked it. But I noticed that it made me eat a lot and I didn’t need any help in that department.
Back to the point, I didn’t smoke so I wasn’t in "that club". If you are not in the group then you have no idea what guys are doing it. The same thing happened in college with cocaine. I have never done cocaine, but some of my buddies did and I had no idea. I just thought that they were really hyper.
My opinion is this. I can’t fault anyone for doing steroids because they are trying to do everything they can to get to the big leagues. I played in the Dominican and Venezuela and nothing you say will change my opinion on a guy making a decision to feed his family. This isn’t apples and apples.
I don’t even think that those guys who did do steroids pushed me out of the game. I had the ability to play the game at the highest level and that is really cool to me.
It's an interesting analogy made about the pot smokers and the non-users. Extrapolating it out further, doesn't it make sense that guys who were 'in the club' like Jose Canseco would want to paint more people with the same brush stroke? What was the real percentage of users in baseball? My guess is that it was lower than the Mitchell Report would have us believe but higher than they admitted at the time.
Another interesting point is made about Latin American players. How many of these guys have been popped for steroids? Miguel Tejada is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I know there have been some minor leaguers recently hit with 50-game bans for taking controlled substances, but was there anyone from that late 90's era? Just an interesting point to ponder.
The more major leaguers and former major leaguers we can get to talk about these things, the better. This blog by Ensberg is the one thing baseball fans lack lots of time: first-hand interaction with guys playing the game at its highest level. I can't wait for more posts!
Vallejo optioned: Jose Vallejo cleared waivers Tuesday and was outrighted to Round Rock. The 24-year old second baseman is still recovering from surgery to repair the tendons in his hand, which he sliced while cooking at his home in the Dominican Republic.
Obviously, no team was going to claim a player who will already be missing the season. What I wonder is what the Astros have planned for that extra spot on the 40-man roster. That's exactly the kind of flexibility that gives Ed Wade the chance to make a shrewd trade or waiver pickup.
It also gives them the chance to keep a non-roster guy on the big league roster with Berkman's injury. More likely, this is a move to keep a guy like Chris Shelton on the roster if Berkman needs to be put on the DL to start the season. That way, as clack said earlier this week, Blum and Shelton could split playing time for the first couple of weeks.
Lyon throwing Thursday: I mentioned it in Tuesday's game thread, but Brandon Lyon was cleared to pitch in a real, live game on Thursday and will be making his Astros debut against his old team, the Detroit Tigers.
Considering Lyon had his 'Controlled' game pushed up to Tuesday, I wonder if he saw the Tigers on the schedule and pushed Brad Mills to get him ready to face them. While there may not be bad blood between Lyon and the Tigers' front office, being dumped just isn't very fun. Here's hoping he's healthy and effective to show them he deserved that 15 million dollar deal...Wait, shouldn't he be trying to show US the same thing?
Johnson and Johnson: In case you missed it, Astros minor league third baseman Chris Johnson got to play against his dad, Red Sox first base coach Ron Johnson, on Tuesday. The two got to exchange lineup cards before the game and Chris was able to make a couple good defensive plays not five feet away from his father, who was able to coach at third for this game only.
From Alden Gonzalez' story on Astros.com:
"It was a weird feeling. It really was. Because it's different. I've never been in a situation where you look out there and go, 'Well, he's a good player, I like the second baseman, and I love the third baseman -- literally! It's kind of strange."
Every now and then, you get a spring training story that has no bearing on the season, won't affect anything else, but could only happen in Florida or Arizona. Like Garth Brooks playing in the outfield for a charity. Or Tim Raines and Tim Raines Jr. both playing in the same outfield one spring. It's getting to see legends like Sandy Koufax up close or future stars like Stephen Strasburg. My wife asked me the other day why I like spring training so much better than football preseason. I don't know that I have a good answer, but I think it has something to do with stories like these.
Roy looks good: Another strong outing for Roy Oswalt on Tuesday means the Astros may have their ace back. Oswalt got nine ground ball outs, which tells me that he's not only confident in his defense, but that whatever changes he and Brad Arnsberg made are working.
Oswalt's start also put him in line to pitch on Opening Day. Assuming that Wandy pitches tomorrow, does that mean Brett Myers will be the third guy, or will Bud Norris slot in there? Technically, the No. 3 starter doesn't have to pitch right behind your Nos. 1 and 2. it's all about performance, right? At the same time, this week's pitching order could tell us a little more about the new skipper.
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still downplaying steroids....
It’s sad that some bloggers are still trying to downplay the widespread, rampant steroid usage in baseball from the mid 1990’s to mid-2000s. Players basically had to roid up to stay competitive after so many major leaguers started taking them. I wasn’t just teh sluggers..it was your light-hitting shortstops and the pitchers too. ESPECIALLY the pitchers….that’s why they never complained about throwing to these roided-up hitters. Guys were putting better numbers up at 40 than they were at 30. That’s not how basbeall works. And it’s naive to keep giving “icons” like Cal Ripken, Jr. and Ken Griffey, Jr passes when it comes to this conversation. Look at A-Roid, I mean A-Rod…I wish I had a dollar for every time some “expert” said “At least when A-Rod breaks the record, it’ll be clean.” Please. Puljols…he came up right in the middle of this era and certainly took HGH or roids at some point.
The funny thing about this is when these guys were shattering HR records with totals in the 60s and 70s, I thought it was obvious to everyone that they were roided up, but that no one cared. I mean, c’mon…McGuire was 275 pounds standing on first base. Sosa went from 175 pounds to 240 pounds. What did everyone think was going on? And the ones who continue to downplay roids and give out benefits-of-a-doubt are the same ones that didn’t realize what was going on in the first place when it was painfully obvious.
Wait ’til they find out the NBA is ’roided up. ;)
How is it naive
to give guys like Cal and Griffey a pass? Their is no evidence pointing to any kind of use by those two players, and that’s being fair not naive.
Was it in the name of “fairness” that A-rod was giving a pass so long? And who is supposed to come up with this “evidence”? Don’t expect sports media to do it, because the sports press is now basically fans with press credentials, and no one wants to risk being shut out by the players for uncovering inconvenient truths.
Cal and Griffey both put on a lot of muscle at the same time everyone else was roiding. I guess you don’t think Cal could’ve used a little help breaking Gehrig’s record.
I’m not faulting the players for roiding. It wasn’t even a banned substance in baseball til late 2003 I believe. If anyone is to blame, it’s the owners and commissioner who were giddy about filling the parks again and didn’t care about the cost. The players did what they did to maintain their competitive edge.
Timmy, when did you first realize these sluggers were roiding up? And do you even suspect that the pitchers have been roiding right along with them?
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
my reaction to your post is that it is highly speculative. I’ll agree with Coleman’s post here that we don’t know for certain how widespread. It could be somewhere between the two extremes, in terms of alleged percentages. I’m not inclined to make allegations about specific players without hard facts. I do think that the current testing program is reasonably effective; so I have no reason
notto say that A-Rod’s current performance is “clean.” And, as for HGH, I don’t really care about professional athletes’ usage. The scientific evidence does not provide any support for the idea that HGH enhances athletic performance. However, professional ballpayers are taking medical risks for their own health if they use HGH outside of medical supervision.
clack…I hope you aren’t serious that you don’t think HGH doesn’t help athletic performance (what “scientic evidence” are you pointing to?). I guess the millions of guys pumping iron and beefing up on HGH are wasting their money. HGH will make you stronger…does that help athletic performance? And some athletes would eat cow dung if they thought it would improve performance.
I’m not talking about who is roiding now. I’m talking about mid-90’s to mid-2000’s. In that era, steroids were so prevelant that the question isn’t “who was taking?” “Who WASN’T taking?” is a more appropriate question. There is doubt cast over every player in the steroid era, even on those who didn’t use roids. This is one of the prices the game had to play for what was going on, and the reputations of players who remained clean are among the casualties. Sure was fun watching those baseballs fly out of the park though, wasn’t it? ;)
And yes, guys are still roiding now, although not nearly as much. The guys that continue to use roids do so because they think they can get away with it and that they are smarter than everyone else (certainly smarter than sports media). It’s like A-Roids 60 Minutes interview, staring straight into the camera and lying about his roid usage. Inside, he was laughing at the gullabilty of the lowly fans that treated him like a god.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Look, you are obviously very passionate about this subject. I understand if you felt disillusioned when this whole steroid mess broke. People who have followed this story since it began six years ago realize a couple of things, however.
First, HGH has NEVER been linked to enhancing performance. Yes, guys have been using it while assuming this is the case. But, also remember that HGH was a medically researched drug. Studies were done to see its effects. There have been no signs that it helps increase muscle mass. Anabolic steroids? Yes. HGH? No.
Second, the point was made waaay back in 2004 that the biggest benefactors for steroids were probably middle relievers, who gained 5 MPH on their fastballs. The home run hitters get all the press, but it’s been well-documented that everyone could benefit.
The point I made, and the point that you seem not to grasp, is that not everyone in baseball used steroids. A group of them did, true, but that doesn’t mean everyone did. If you have an interest in accusing everyone of using, I believe Rick Reilly has a nice site you can go comment on instead.
by David Coleman on Mar 17, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The study discussed here has results comparable to other clinical studies. Also, look here. HGH potentially may be effective on men in old age (giving rise to the snake oil claims as an anti-aging drug) but that doesn’t translate to the young professional athlete.
Why would athletes (or anybody else, for that matter) use a drug which is ineffective. It happens all the time, though. Our country has a rich history of quackery. Perhaps steroids dealers are pushing HGH because it is untestable and easier to sell. Banning the substance may have the unintended effect of making athletes believe that it is effective (or else it wouldn’t be banned, so they think). Athletes are also superstitious and may use substances based on simple belief. Let me be clear: I’m not advocating that anybody use HGH; I say “I don’t care” from the standpoint of its impact on competitive fairness.
I agree with your basic point. Those studies don’t support the conclusions that most people claim though. Short term endurance and muscle mass are sort of shotgun, crude indicators. For instance, you can’t conclude that it doesn’t support enhanced endurance or muscle building in all situations.
You’re absolutely right about people taking drugs that are worthless or harmful though, often guided by the medical community as well as aggressive marketers.
Comical
I understand that most fans including Johnlorlando don’t study exercise physiology and and how the body works nor study ergogenic aides. But, luckily, those who don’t usually don’t argue whether or not stuff is effective because they do not understand the science behind it. I on the other hand have studies this throughout college and have done multiple research papers and presententations and sat through countless lectures on the subjects. And i challenge you Johnlorlando to find a single SCIENTIFIC study that proves HGH works! You won’t… You’ll find a few that will have that may give some indicators it may be beneficial but nothing definitive. It works for HGH deficient and elderly patients only. 99% of research points to it having no effect. In fact, there are indications in the research from the past 5 years that it could actually decrease performance. Clack linked to an article that discussed it can increase fat free mass, which is not an indicator of performance.
As far as steroids, obviously they work, all research points to that. Below you said roids only help to recover…false…roids do much more than that. they do help with that to some degree, but they also lower total protein turnover, meaning less protein is damaged in the muscle during a workout, which lowers the damage needed to recover, but it actually builds back much more protein in the muscle than one one build without it. There are more things that it does than help recover.
Miguel Tejada
Never popped for steroids, his was of the legal variety and lying to congress.
Manny Ramirez would be the highest profile who has popped recently.
True
And given some time to think about it, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro probably share some of his suspicions about steroids or B-12 shots. Ensberg’s comment just raised an interesting question to me; why is there a disparity so far in who’s been outed?
by David Coleman on Mar 17, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
…because the public is naive about roids, and thinks that roid-users have to look like muscle-bound cavemen. That’s why the pitchers and light-hitting shortstops didn’t get accused. And they stayed tight-lipped. Roids helps one to recover…that’s it. A significant muscle-weight gain doesn’t necessarily have to accompany roid usage.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Wasn’t talking about specific players, it was more about the nationalities, as I mentioned in the first post. How do you know so much about steroids?
by David Coleman on Mar 17, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I knew A-Rod was roided up when I saw him at a Rays’ game in 2004, so I was 4 years ahead of the curve there, and I definately knew without question that the sluggers were roided when they were hitting 60 homers like it was 45…way ahead of the curve there too. And I know that the pitchers throwing to these sluggers were roided too. Why would I be wrong all-of-a-sudden now, and the naive bloggers and fans who never suspected this roid usage when it was right in front of them, are all-of-a-sudden going to start being right about the subject?
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
…and as far as Latin players go, I knew some Cuban baseball defectors in Costa Rica, where I lived for 10 years. Those guys would roid, do uppers, and anything else they thought would give them an edge. Latin players moreso because they have litterally nothing to lose because of the economic situations they come from.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Congrats on being always right!
I’m starting to think if Bary Bonds came out and admitted his use, that you would have been the only person who saw it years ago… Take a chill pill man, if you still gotta grudge about the 90’s I suggest you do what many of fans with your same feelings and switch to watching a sport where no one has ever cheated… Come to think of it you would probaly have to stop watching sports in general. Bseball had issues and the swept ’em under a rug no one denies it.
by Z-Dub on Mar 17, 2010 11:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re 100% wrong. I love baseball. I still play in a 38-and-over league, and I’m going to try to play this weekend with stitches still in me from a tumor that was removed last Wednesday. I wish I could say Griffey hit 500 homers clean and Ripken broke Ironman’s record without roiding, but I can’t say that with 100% certainty and neither can anyone else because of the era they played in and the overwhelming prevelance of steroid usage in baseball at the time. It was the baseball-mafia and they played the public like a fiddle. Anyone who turned on them was called a “rat” (Canseco). These guys were even called to testify before Congressional investigaters, just like the mob was.
Every single player that has been found to have been using steroids has ONE thing in common: They all denied it at first, and wouldn’t come clean until the smoking gun was found and the bullet fired from it was dug out of someone’s skull. It was teh STERIOD ERA. Leave it at that…fine. But don’t pretend to be able to say that this guy or that guy didn’t do roids when almost everyone else was. At the end of the day, you cannot prove that a player WASN’T taking steroids. All you have is someone’s word, at a time where easily 80% to 90%, possibly more, were taking steroids to help their performance.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Bonds...
Bonds hit 73 homers a couple of years after McGuire’s 70, and the cat was WAY out of the bag, at that point. Anyone who thought Bonds was playing roid-free was naive, and should’ve been immediately issued press credentials.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at Morgan Ensberg getting kudos for his “well thought-out” answer regarding roids and illicit drug usage (I bet it was well thought-out!!!) He admits to taking illicit drugs which DO NOT help his performance, and then he wants us to believe that he didn’t take other banned substances like HGH or steroids that DO help ones athletic performance. That doesn’t even make sense.
I have to say that your logic doesn’t make sense to me. Probably 80% or more of college students used illicit drugs at some time. Ensberg is no different than the majority of college students, and if he had said he had never used marijuana, I would have doubts about his honesty—just like I would if a politician claimed he had never tried marijuana. Your comment seems to suggest that marijuana use, for example, is a gateway drug for HGH or steriods—which is a frankly ridiculous idea.
by clack on Mar 17, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now that you mention it...
I owned a gym in the past, and almost every steroid user I came in contact with also used illicit drugs like weed (to take the roid-aggression edge off) and cocaine, as well as alcohol.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
if a large percentage of young people, in general, use marijuana, alcohol or cocaine, I’ m not sure that means much, from either a correllation or causation standpoint.
I don’t think ANYTHING young people do means much, from a correllation or causation standpoint. But steroid users, both young and old and middle-aged, overwhelmingly use illicit drugs and alcohol as well. They go hand-in-hand. If you ever knew any steroid users and spent time around them, you would pick up on this.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I don’t think you got my point. Let’s assume that steroids users also are likely to use marijuana or alcohol. (I’m not saying I agree, because I don’t know what the studies show.) That doesn’t mean that using marijuana or alcohol is evidence of using steroids. To make that link is a logical fallacy.
I never said that. You are setting up strawmen now.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually
Many of the steroid users who would steroids to increase there performace in athletics, would be far less inclined to use other drugs because many realize that even with an influx of synthetic testosterone the body doesn’t just get bigger and recover faster. It takes steroids, proper training and a proper diet to be where all of the steroid users want to be, and they know this. The people who use other drugs either do not know what they are doing when it comes to “juicing,” and will never be able to sustain the riggors of athletics. Now there are probly more roiders who use other drugs, but the athletes who used and use roids either break down at a very early age or never amount to anything much because their body can’t handle. So to your point that roiders always use other drugs, I would say that the one’s who do not compete and do it just to do it , you ate probly right, but the athletes who used seroids to perform more than likely steered away from other drugs.
by Z-Dub on Mar 17, 2010 11:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I get your point, z-Dub, and yes, these athletes have to train hard even when on steroids, and have a proper diet to maximize results. But don’t kid yourself…a lot of these athletes like to party too. Sometimes we end up reading about it.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I did not use illicit drugs in college (or before or after)
Does that mean I cannot run for public office?
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Mar 17, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
the question doesn’t seem as frequently aimed at candidates nowadays, as the public recognizes that it isn’t overly relevant anymore. My favorite response from a candidate was Sen. Hollings whose opponent ran on a platform of “I will take a drug test and I demand my opponent take one too.” Hollings said, during a debate with his opponent, “I will take a drug test when my opponent agrees to take an IQ test.”
If people are going to lampoon guys like Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds for NOT admitting to anything, then why shouldn’t we give Ensberg credit for actually saying something?
by David Coleman on Mar 17, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Ensberg said something, but I’m sure he didn’t give the whole story. And why would he? After all, he has nothing to gain, and you are on the outside-looking-in.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Johnlorlando
My problem with your arguments is that you assume everybody is guilty. You can’t be correct about everyone.
Ensberg statement that users seprate themselves from nonusers rings true. I went to the Univeristy of Texas and at times somneone who did not know me would offer me drugs. I declined and they accepted it.. I accept statements that drug use at Texas was rampant.. I did not see it, though, with rare exceptions, and cannot tell you if my friends did drugs or not. I can accept that if Ensberg was not in the user group he would not know the degree of use and who the users were.
I also can accept his using marijuana but not steroids.
I can accept your statements that dedicated bodybuilders used steroids and other drugs. I’m not a bodybuilder. Sort of like my per theory that all cigarette smokers drink coffee (but not all coffee drinkers smoke).
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Mar 17, 2010 12:23 PM CDT reply actions
I can’t be correct about everyone, but neither can anyone else. All I have tried to say is that anyone who played in the steroid era HAS to be looked at as a possible steroid-user, because the majority of them were. If I called everyone in the majors in 2000 a steroid user, I’d be right in more cases than I’m wrong. I’m not even saying that it’s a big deal. I could care less. Steroids weren’t even a banned substance in baseball until late, 2003, so I don’t even view it as cheating, although a few other posters here used that term. All I’m saying is that guys were roiding from the top players in the game, all the way down to the most marginal or players and minor leaguers.
Two things surprise me about the roid situation in baseball: 1) How naive the fans and press were to not realize these 240 pound sluggers were on roids and 2) The level of disgust and disapproval once they did find out (I just though everyone knew and didn’t care) while the balls were flying out.
Baseball fans, when discussing steroids in basbeall sound like guys who used to ask if the Mr. Olympia contestants took roids. I guess a lot of them are.
by Johnlorlando on Mar 17, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I too am a Longhorn
And I had never tried illicit drugs until I got to college. I tried cocaine, pot, X, and LSD. I also drank quite heavily. And I had a blast. After graduation, I left all that behavior behind. I rarely drink now at 38. I have not and will not try any of the drugs I tried in college because I have done them already.
It's fun to do bad things. -Latarian Milton
by TexasGarcia37 on Mar 17, 2010 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with some of your points in this comment …yes, I agree that there it is difficult to rule out players (just as it is difficult to know for certain that a suspicious player did use steroids) and I also agree that there are some contradictions in the way that the press has reacted to the steroids disclosures. And I think we can all agree that the subject draws a lot of passion—the word David used—from fans.
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