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How much stock should the Astros put in Tommy Manzella's glove?

This piece has to start with a strong preface: I don't know the answer to this question, nor will I by the end of this.  All I can use is the information available, spotty, at best, due to the inherent shortcomings of defensive metrics and their required sample size.  I can also rely on scouting reports and my own first hand account watching Manzella play defense in Round Rock.  These, however, are all ways at getting the truth, but never actually arriving.  It'll be an approximation, and that leaves plenty of room for error.

That said, I want to try and get to a general idea of how much probability we should be assigning to Tommy Manzella's glove.  It's something we've discussed numerous times in the comments section this offseason, but it's something that hasn't receive the full attention of a front page article.  It's something that's been brewing about in the back of mind for sometime now, but it's not something I've had the heart to actually sit down and quantify—or at least attempt to do so. That's the rub of being a blogger about your favorite team, you have to look at the ugly truth about your team far too often.

Now, I probably have a personal bias against Manzella's fielding because an un-scooped mis-throw of his almost took my head off back in April when I was in a camera well at Dell Diamond.  But aside from the fear that either myself, or my friend's $600 camera, was going to get clobbered because of the errant throw, the rest of what I've seen of Manzella hasn't inspired a lot of confidence.  My honest impression of seeing him play is that he has the range, but his arm isn't accurate enough; again, though, there's a huge potential bias on my end in terms of his throwing prowess.

I doubt you're reading this to read through my internal monologue about whether I'm being too harsh on Manzella's defense.  So, we'll get to the numbers.  We'll primarily be taking a look at TotalZone, a metric that was conceived of, and honed, by Sean Smith (the CHONE guy).  Though not as advanced as UZR, its simplistic input allows for prevalent minor league data, which is what we need for this endeavor.

Obviously, as Astros fans, our logical benchmark for a great defensive shortstop is Adam Everett.  Tommy Manzella is not the next Adam Everett just because I'm not entirely convinced we didn't watch the best fielding short stop ever in 2006.  Failing to live up to the impressive glove work of Everett doesn't mean Manzella won't be a good, or even great, fielder.  Just that I want to see if we can come to a more concrete way of predicting his success than what the Astros organization has touted about Mr. Manzella.  So, after the jump, I'll give you my best effort at coming up with just that.

(If you're interested in what Manzella's bat might look like, relative to Everett's, click here for AstroAndy's excellent investigation of the subject last summer)

Star-divide

There are several ways of viewing Tommy Manzella's defense that have kept me up the last few nights thinking them through. The first, and somewhat valid, method would be look what Manzella's marginal impact our defense will be from 2009 to 2010.  The process is pretty straight forward: Take Miguel Tejada's TotalZone Rating from 2009 and then using what we know about Manzella's defense determine what the marginal change would be.

Miguel Tejada, in 2009, had a TotalZone rating of -22, which we can approximate as runs.  Not a stellar year for Miggy, and a drop of twenty-three runs from 2008.  Since 2005, Tommy Manzella has posted yearly TotalZones of 2, 0, 2, 3, and 3 (via MinorLeagueSplits.com).  Over a five year period, he averages a TotalZone of 2.  I'm comfortable with assuming that Manzella's five year average is a reasonable—enough—approximation for his defensive skill. Thus, the marginal expected change in the Astros defense, at shortstop, in 2010, is 24 runs.  That's an impressive change and would likely offset whatever Manzella's batting line is compared Tejada's.

However, it doesn't really answer the question we need answered.  We don't want to know if Manzella will be better than Tejada at defense.  What we want to know is if Manzella is plus a defender.  Plus enough to offset a dismal/triple/slash, that is.

Our mythical benchmark is Adam Everett. And, even as unlikely that I feel it is that we'll see another Adam Everett-esque defensive shortstop again (until Jiovanni Mier, of course...), let's run with that concept.

After scouring the internet far and wide for what I could find in terms of defensive metrics for minor leaguers, I'm depressed.  The goal was to find something that I could use to compare the development of Everett and Manzella using apples to apples.  Unfortunately, the best statistic that's out there for evaluating minor league defense, Total Zone, can only go back so far (2005, to be exact).

I did, in the search, learn more about the utility of TotalZone ratings for minor league players.  And it is something we should address before we push onward:

For the ratings to be useful, they need to correlate from one level to another. If we knew a player had a +15 rating one year, that would be of no use unless it told us that he was likely to continue to post good ratings in future seasons, at higher levels of the minors. Preliminary investigation shows that these ratings are more useful for infielders than outfielders. The correlation is much lower for outfielders, though at least they are (usually) positive. I’ve found that you can usually get a correlation of 0.50, meaning you regress 50 percent to the mean, at about 350 chances for infielders. This represents less than a full season of chances for second, third and short. For outfielders, you need about two full seasons of data to regress 50 percent, or about 1,000 chances.

The only season's worth of data that we have about Manzella where he has 350+ chances at a single level is 2009; the same season in which he posted his best career number of +3.  That's something to consider as the other years that reported rely on incomplete samples as Manzella changed levels.

The other thing to consider is that Sean Smith has developed an MLE (major league equivalent) for TotalZone based on his regression analysis of defense from every level.  For a SS, the MLE is -10 at AAA.  However, these MLE's are based on 500 chances, aren't park adjusted, and are based flyball/linedrive tendencies in the minors.  If we scale the MLE to Manzella's 400 chances at AAA, though, he'd be rerated as a -5.  Still a full 18 runs better than Tejada was last year, but certainly no Adam Everett.

This has been a lovely digression, and something that should be variable in our evaluation of Manzella's defense, but let's get back to the task at hand.  The only apple to apple comparison I could find for Manzella and Everett was Range Factor (click here to read Tango's critique of the metric).  As imperfect as it is, it's what we have to work with. And, truth be told, fielding metrics are imperfect, so we could also just choose to view Range Factor as just being more imperfect and sweat it a little less (although, it looks like things are getting pretty damned close to accurate: here and here).

Age Everett Manzella
21 4.81
22 4.32
23 4.69 4.19
24 4.58 4.34
25 4.99 4.57
26 4.24

Manzella looked as though he were in a career arc of improvement, until 2009 saw him post a step backwards.  I'm wiling to give him the benefit of the doubt in 2009 because John Gall was his first baseman (he's no Puma, we'll just leave it at that). There could have very well been plays that Manzella would have gotten credit for if he had a better first baseman, but the fact remains, Manzella remains a step behind Everett no matter how we slice it. 

If we were to draw any conclusions on Manzella's defense, I'd say the following:

  • At every level, Manzella is behind Everett.
  • Manzella, however, does seem to be gradually improving, much the same way that Everett did—just never quite reaching Everett's height.
  • The prior to observations leads to a defensible conclusion that Manzella will always be a step behind (below?) Everett.
  • That conclusion doesn't necessarily impose a low ceiling for Manzella, though.
Obviously, the numbers aren't going to lead me to the conclusion I am so clearly grasping for—desperately.  A case can be made that he has a ceiling that's high, but, thus far, our empirical knowledge of Manzella isn't as rosy of a picture we've heard. Sure, his Range Factor isn't terrible when we view it next to Adam Everett, but Manzella has yet to post a TotalZone that suggests he is going to be an above average defender.

Yet, all we've heard about Manzella is that he's a plus defender.  But, we've mainly heard that from the Astros themselves, plus a few scouting reports.  It's hard to really take an organization's evaluation of a propsect too seriously because they're only going to paint the rosiest of pictures possible.  So I took to the internet to find any and every scouting report I could find on Manzella.  What I found doesn't leave me convinced that TotalZone is just underrating Manzella.

First, there's the fact that Manzella has a been a perennial C prospect for John Sickels, who writes that Manzella is "a steady and reliable defensive shortstop.  His bat isn't that bad, so that leads me to infer that really isn't bringing a truly plus glove, otherwise he'd be more than a C.  BPro's, Kevin Goldstein had this to say of Manzella, "[a] fundamentally sound shortstop." I don't read that and get goosebumps.  Of course, Goldstein follows that with "[h]e's a fantastic glove man whose instincts and 55 speed (on the 20-80 scale) give him plenty of range. Manzella also has outstanding hands and an above-average arm." Mixed signals from Goldstein, no love from Sickels...not the greatest start.


Mining other prospect sites brought the following comments (thanks to David for compiling most of these for me):
  • Ben Balder of Baseball America "He does have a solid arm, hands and footwork, but he's really more of a spray hitter without much pop, so it's hard to see him as more than a slightly above replacement-level player at best."
  • Gerry Fraley "With a combination of soft hands and a powerful arm, Manzella, 26, is the best defensive infielder in the organization."
  • Baseball America, from 2007,  says Manzella "has solid range, a strong arm and fine instincts."
  • Baseball America, from 2009, probably has the most glowing review of Manzella, with "Defensively, he's a slick fielder in the mold of former Astro Adam Everett, with good feet and balance and good range going both ways. He makes strong throws across the diamond. His defense isn't quite as good as Everett's though his offense should be better."
First, saying someone is the best defensive infielder in the Astros farm system isn't saying a whole lot.  They're not bursting at the seems with prospects, and least of all in the infield.  Further, I don't see a single superlative describing his attributes.  I see words that make me think "slightly above average" and "not great."  David, who provided the Sickel's and BA quotes for me, took the same impression away.  There's nothing that's been written about Manzella—really—that would lead to the conclusion that this a great fielding prospect we're looking at.

It's at this point in my odyssey  that the real sleeplessness has set in for me (seriously, I woke up early, while on vacation to finish this up).  We've done a lot of defending of the moves the Astros have made this offseason by crediting Ed Wade for bolstering defense behind a pitching staff that will certainly take advantage of it.  But now I'm left wondering if that's the case.  Certainly, Manzella is an upgrade from Miguel Tejada.  That, however, doesn't mean he's going to be the kind of stalwart when need behind our ground ball heavy relievers.

The question that I've asked is how much stock should the Astros, or ourselves, put in Tommy Manzella's glove. What we've been able to determine, thus far, is that the numbers leave a glimmer of hope, but don't indicate great success. Basically Manzell's TotalZone indicates that he has floor of being just slightly below average at fielding SS, but a ceiling that could range higher.  Based on Manzella's TotalZone, coupled with the scouting reports on him, I think that he has a ceiling of being a slightly above average defensive shortstop.  That's about as high as I think we can place it.

So how much stock should the Astros put in Tommy Manzella's glove? I fear that the answer is that they've already put too much in it.

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As I’ve stated previously, Total Zone is a crude defensive measure and should be viewed as “some information is better than none.” And, by that, I mean, if you have play-by-play defensive data (i.e., UZR, Fielding Bible), you should use the play-by-play data. And TZ appears to overstate how bad Tejada’s defense was. Tejada was -12.5 last year, and his 2 year Astros total (-3 runs) is fairly close to his career average of -4.7 (all are UZR/150). We don’t have useful UZR type data for Manzella. But it appears Total Zone is off by at least -10 runs for Tejada. That makes it highly unlikely, in my view, that the magnitude of Manzella’s improvement over Tejada is as large as you suggest (18 runs).

If you go by Total Zone, Maysonet would appear to be almost as good a defensive candidate at shortstop as Manzella. The reservation is that Maysonet hasn’t gotten the same sample sizes at shortstop (partly because he often on the same teams as Manzella). But the only time he got over 350 chances at shortstop was in Salem, where he was +18 per 150. However, given Total Zone’s imprecision, I assume that the Astros’ scouting decisions (consistently playing Manzella over Maysonet at shortstop when they are on the same teams) are a more accurate basis of comparing the two players’ defense.

My guess is that Manzella will be somewhere between -2 and +2 or so at the ML level next year. That probably means that his offense needs to be decent. Otherwise he isn’t an improvement over the numerous “good defense/no offense” minor league shortstops who never make it to the majors. It’s also worth noting that Elvis Andrus had mediocre TZ numbers at the minor league level, but turned out to be very good defensively last year in the majors. One could hope that Manzella makes the same jump. But, realistically, it may be less likely for a 26 year old moving up from AAA than a 21 year old.

by clack on Feb 8, 2010 7:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

True about TotalZone

Which is why prefaced the article the way that I did. However, as we’ve seen with Bourn’s UZR last year, defensive metrics aren’t perfect, yet. And, this is a case, I believe, that some information is better than none.

Having poured over as many TotalZone numbers as I did, my guess is that TotalZone probably does a good job of estimating defense in and around the range of -5 to +5, after that, the gaps between UZR and TotalZone crop up.

As to the contention that the Astros decision to preference Manzella over Maysonet should serve as an indicator, Maysonet, according to the people I spoke with in Round Rock, is someone that a majority of the decision makers in the front office don’t like. Not for his skills, just they don’t like something about the man himself. So, I’m not entirely convinced that their judgement should be the one that we use.

My main goal was to show that we have neither empirical evidence (limited as it may be), nor scouting evaluations that suggest that we should view Manzella as a plus defensive shortstop in the way that the Astros front office has sold him.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never been too high on Maysonet. Let’s compare his OPS with Manzella over the last three years:

Maysonet
2007: .675
2008: .723
2009: .640

Manzella:
2007: .663
2008: .679
2009: .756

Maysonet is older, viewed as having worse defense, and has worse offense as well. Seems like a no-brainer on this one, although keeping Maysonet around “just in case” is probably a good idea.

by OremLK on Feb 8, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This isn't about Manzella v. Maysonet

It’s about the fact that there doesn’t appear to be an ample amount of support for the contention that Manzella is going to be a big enough upgrade at defense to justify his spot in the line up. Especially in an off season full of moves that were supposedly belied by the fact that we were upgrading our defense to compensate for diminished offense.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 12:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know. The talk about the two of them just sent me off in that direction. Sorry.

To get a little back on topic, I’m not sure the Astros organization has sold Manzella as being a plus defender; I think they’ve mostly been saying his glove is “major league ready”, which I take to mean “average”. It’s us fans who have probably read too much into it and gotten a little too worked up over his defense.

Like you and clack, I’m expecting somewhere between slightly below average and slightly above average. That’s a big upgrade from Tejada’s performance last year (whether his was driven by bad luck or not), so I’d be happy with that, as long as Manzella’s bat isn’t too bad.

by OremLK on Feb 8, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But what about when the astros.com writer publishes this

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/02/is-tommy-manzella-the-next-adam-everett.html

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 10:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Astros’ front office (Pupura or the scouting director at the time) called Manzella the “next Adam Everett” when he was drafted out of Tulane. No doubt they needed to say that in order to explain why they drafted a guy without much in the way of hitting stats. But that monicker seemed to follow him.

by clack on Feb 9, 2010 6:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Manzella over Maysonet, easy

Maysonet hasn’t played shortstop full-time since 2006, and his offensive track record pales in comparison to that of Manzella, although neither one impresses. Manzella probably won’t be anything too special in the field, comparing him to Everett is some awfully high praise, but expecting him to be slightly above average is reasonable.

The Astros realistically should look elsewhere for a shortstop, neither Manzella or Maysonet deserves to start everyday, but if they’re sticking with options within the organization, Manzella would be seem to be a better bet than Maysonet.

If you squint really hard, it almost looks like my name is Satchel Paige.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on Feb 8, 2010 12:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Who's the everyday shortstop if Manzella bombs or gets injured?

The depth chart at short is thin, thin, thin.

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Feb 8, 2010 1:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

…or Blum, I suppose. It’s hard to say who would be worse at shortstop, defensively, Blum or Keppinger. At one time in his career, Blum was reasonably good at the SS position, but I doubt that he would do much good defensively at his current age. Maybe you get a L/R platoon with the two of them.

Really, this is something which bugs me; the Astros should have looked for a true shortstop who could have shared the position with Manzella. Even a look at some Quad-A shortstops might have been useful. A little competition for Manzella this spring might be better for him than just handing him the job.

by clack on Feb 8, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I still think Felipe Lopez would be a great signing for this purpose. He’s never been a good shortstop, but he’d be pretty comparable to Tejada defensively, and would likely shore up our offense in the infield no matter where we put him (except first base, obviously).

by OremLK on Feb 8, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, that’s a good idea. don’t see it happening though.

by clack on Feb 8, 2010 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My guess is that we'll find someone who clears waivers

Or just gets cut.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At the end of Spring Training

That is.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same thing. Looking around at some of the big league rosters, I can see some decent shortstop options who may be waived near the end of spring training.

by clack on Feb 8, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True

That’s what bugs me the most. Having spent three days researching, writing, and thinking about Manzella, I was left frustrated with the lack of a back option we have and how likely we are to need it.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Feb 8, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s no way the team gives up on Manzella by the end of spring training. The lack of options pretty much guarantees that. Instead, if he’s struggling in April, I could see the Astros making a panic trade, giving up too much for an actual, big league shortstop. Ugh.

by David Coleman on Feb 8, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure what kind of spring training collapse would cause the Astros to panic. But I think back to the catching situation in the spring last year. After Towles and Quintero went a week or so to start the spring without a hit, the Astros got panicky and signed Pudge. I’m not saying two weeks is enough to cause panic in this situation, but I think the Astros will start to feel uncomfortable with their lack of a back up plan if the spring is coming to a close and Manzella is hitting, say, .100.

by clack on Feb 8, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But I also think that the draw of having Pudge on the roster to sell tickets early helped that signing. There aren’t really any shortstops out there on the market that will automatically get fans excited, especially after Omar Vizquel signed with the White Sox. I definitely think the team will get jittery with a slow spring, but I don’t see them making a move until late April.

by David Coleman on Feb 8, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is what happens when you acquire Tejada and let him play SS, instead of 3B, while releasing your current starting SS.

by timmy_ on Feb 9, 2010 7:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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