Friday Astros Minor Thoughts
If you haven't been able to tell, I really enjoy covering the minor leagues. I even have a (very neglected) blog on the subject. I could talk about the Astros farm system every day. But, I try to control myself and think I'm going to settle on writing a Friday column with all sorts of little tidbits throughout the season. Sometimes, like this week, a couple of the stories I picked up for this were already FanShotted. I hope you don't mind seeing them twice. At any rate, let's get to the good stuff:
With the debut of some college seasons, talk of the June draft is starting to percolate. The Astros have four picks in the first two rounds in the 2010 draft. Judging from this article, the best they will get the best bang for those picks by taking hitters, either college or high school. If they have to take a pitcher, it's better to take a high school arm than a college one. If you look at Bobby Heck's profile since joining the Astros, he's already following a very similar model. He's picked a college bat high, high school position players, high school arms and not one college arm in the top three rounds. Either his people have broken down this kind of data, or he just intuitively understands how to get good value from the draft. Whichever it is, I feel even better about the Astros prospects.
Interestingly, over at insidethebook.com, Tangotiger makes the point that any pitcher outside the top 25 college and high school arms is like throwing darts blindfolded. Everyone talks about Mike Piazza being found in the 62nd round as evidence that you can find value late. In the future, though, it's going to be late-round pitchers who have the best chance to make the majors. Look at a guy like Danny Meszaros. Because There's No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect (TNSTAPP), pitchers from late in the draft have an easier time flying up the organization. If there are injuries which hurt depth, there's an even greater chance. Now, I'm not suggesting that teams will start finding stars in the 40th round. But Tango's article does suggest that it's easier to find big-league pitchers late than you'd expect.
I know there are some good people doing stat-oriented prospecting, but it's still jarring to see someone on MLB.com use things like ISO when discussing Mike Stanton. I was kind of surprised to see Stanton ranked so highly, since he strikes out a ton. Still, clubs are always searching for power and Stanton seems to have that in droves. I still don't know if he's much different than Mike Jacobs, though. I guess he's cheaper, at least.
Let the Bryce Harper talk continue. The 17-year old made his debut for the College of Southern Nevada and hit his first home run in Game No. 4. Here's a video of it.
Mayo also has an article up talking about his predictions for the 2010 draft. His list of the top 10 players in the 2010 draft isn't a suggestion of when they'll be picked, but one of the most talented. If the Astros ended up with Zach Cox, would you be happy? If Cox and Harper are both sitting there at eight, who do you pick? I'm sure the Astros could move Harper off to either second or third if they needed to (I'm not sure his defense would be better than Castro's). If Harper comes in with a price tag 2 million over Cox, does that influence your choice? I like the idea of taking Cox simply because he's a polished college bat that could arrive in a year and a half a la Ryan Zimmerman. Harper may have more upside, but he's also very overhyped to this point. I could see him falling a bit on merit once scouts see him in college.
On second thought, this tweet from Lincoln Hamilton at Project Prospect makes me less excited about Cox. A 29% strikeout rate? Yikes! That's almost as bad as Willy Taveras...oh, wait, that was yesterday's post. It's still early in the evaluation process, but I think I like the idea of taking a college hitter with the eighth pick. If he can play third or second, that's great. A power-hitting first baseman also wouldn't hurt (depending on how you view Phil Disher -- I'm not high on him).
I found a great new draft site by Andy Seiler. He's already done a couple mock drafts for 2010 and has the Astros landing a high school outfielder in LaVon Washington and two high school arms with the first three picks. Interesting stuff, to say the least. I would almost bet they don't go outfielder with that first pick, unless Houston really would move him to second base. I still see them going third base at the top but the 'best available player' card is also in play.
A big tip o' the hat to Farmstros for linking to this article in the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. Some interesting tidbits about guys like Brad James and Johnny Ash, or the "Mayors of Corpus Christi." The real conversation starter for me is why in the heck everyone is so hyped up about T.J. Steele. This just started happening this offseason, where Tal Smith goes around and tells guys like Richard Justice that Steele is Cesar Cedeno 2.0. I might be missing something here, but Steele has been injured. A lot. He didn't play nearly a full season in 2009 and injury concerns dogged in through college. I know evaluators fall in love with talent over production in the minors, but I'm a little tired of this rhetoric with Steele. Remember when Mark Prior was the second coming of Cy Young and Kerry Wood was a new Nolan Ryan? How'd that work out?
Earlier this week, McTaggart tweeted this note about the Venezuelan Winter League championship. While Gustavo Chacin may end up on the big league roster, it's more likely that he ends up at Round Rock. His line in the VWL championship (7 inn, 6 K, 5 H) shows he can still be an effective pitcher at times. If he's healthy, he definitely adds solid depth to the Triple-A rotation.
The Astros have also signed an 18-year old first baseman named Mesac Laguna out of Nicaragua. Houston's Nicaraguan scout Leo Guevara said Laguna has a powerful arm, can hit for power and is athletic. He'll start next season in either the Venezuelan or Dominican Summer Leagues. Guevara also compared him to Jose Offerman and Carlos Gomez, which doesn't seem to gibe with the whole 'powerful' thing or the whole 'first baseman' thing. Also of note: Guevara mentioned the Astros expect to sign four or five more players out of Nicaragua next season.
If you're in the Houston area Friday morning, you can be part of the Astros' team picture. Well, it's a picture taken by the team of you and 1,499 of your closest friends all wearing red for a good cause. I'm in meetings all day and 90 minutes from MMP. Anyone that goes, feel free to keep us updated on how it turns out.
One quick programming note: I'm waiting on the Baseball America and Sickel's books to come in before I can start writing about the possible returns for Oswalt and Berkman. I'm hoping to get each next week, but don't know for sure. If you have the Top 100 list from BA or Sickel's Top 50 lists, shoot me an email.
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LeVon Washington
I thought I had seen his name some where before:
He’s still got the Boras factor, but the word is that his asking price wasn’t ridiculous at all when the Rays failed to sign him in August. Their mistake.
by Timothy De Block on Feb 5, 2010 8:00 AM CST reply actions
i dont think his price was too bad last year, but i still think hes a mid 1st round guy and it would be an overdraft for us at 8. He is strictly an athlete there are too many questions about his bat
by Subber10 on Feb 5, 2010 10:29 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I give some credibility to Tal Smith’s scouting report on T.J. Steele, since he probably is the only Astros’ organization person who was in the front office during both the Cedeno era and the current era. I think his point is that Steele is the best 5 tool CFer coming up through the minor leagues since Cedeno. In theory, Abreu and Hidalgo were 5 tool CFers when they came up, but both players turned out to be best suited as corner outfielders. As far as injury-prone….Cedeno was that, too. Smith’s view is obviously based on tools and projection rather than a solid performance history. So, Steele has a lot to prove.
In my opinion...
…if you can get Harper, you take Harper, unless you’re certain he won’t sign.
I seriously doubt he will be there at #8, though. I’d be happy with Cox, Colon, etc, or Jameson Taillon.
i doubt harper drops that low. I can see him dropping since i agree he is overhyped. I dont see heck drafting somebody with that much hype even if he is available. I can see taillion dropping to us there and id be excited by that although he will have a big price too. Colon is a ss and while they say best available is taken, mier has to influence that since he is considered as a guy who will be promoted up through the system quickly. I think cox is the most likely of this group, although i read that his tag is a little hiegher than what people expect the astros to spend as well. But that k rate is pretty alarming but ive also read its due to him trying to hit everything over the fence which could be fixed possibly
by Subber10 on Feb 5, 2010 10:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think Heck will judge a prospect by how much hype he has surrounding him. At least, I hope he’s a better scouting director than that. If Harper is the best available hitter at that slot, hopefully he will take Harper. But I agree that it’s very unlikely he’ll be available. Somebody will draft him in the top 5 even if he drops below the first overall pick.
I think Colon is expected to be moved to 2b. I would like to see him with the 8th pick. Hopefully his college experience will let him be placed at the same level as Mier, and we can bring them up together. With the 19th, it would be nice to get a 3b, and hopefully one of the top guys will still be available at that point.
by seanbergmanrules on Feb 5, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
I was wondering...
Why Charlie Pallilo at 790 AM here in Houston has been fielding calls about T.J. Steele the last few days. My thoughts are the same about his injuries. Perhaps he will stay healthy this whole year and get me excited.
Farmstros
Follow the Astros of the Future With Us
Young arms:
I disagree with Tango…IMO, we have to address pitching in the draft, and unless there’s a HS kid with just FANTASTIC stuff, and providing there’s 1st round (or 2nd round) talent available, then I say we have to go for it. Now, there’s alot of things I would have to take into consideration…what kind of kid is he, what kind of family does he come from, what does his college coach have to say about him. Cause I’m not JUST looking for a kid with upper 90 heat & a sick breaking ball (although he does have to have those). I’m also gonna look at how he keeps his composure on the mound (especially when things are not going his way). I’m also gonna look at how he interacts with his teammates (I’m looking for that “perfect” chemistry & a guy that’s good in the clubhouse). He can’t be a hot-head or a pot-head or a cry baby. I want a guy who will be loyal to his team, and who will give 200% on & off the field, and who will encourage his teammates to do the same. that’s all, I don’t want much :-)
So you don’t want a young Roger Clemens (a bit of a hot head and whiner) or Randy Johnson and Jeff Kent (surly clubhouse guys)? I know what you’re saying, I just think chemistry things can be overrated.
by David Coleman on Feb 5, 2010 10:26 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
We have lots of pitching on the way
What we don’t have is good infield prospects, except Jiovanni Mier, who is a long way off. We desperately need more depth at all the infield positions.
So basically, I disagree. More pitching never hurts, and I’m sure we’ll take some, but I hope our main focus in the first couple rounds is on hitters, especially college hitters.
I like that you disagree with on of the most respected baseball researchers alive
And then your argument is that he fails to account for such things as “giving 200%.” Pitching prospects definitely should be rated on your scale of:
1) Giving 200%
2) Not being a cry baby
3) Having good stuff that actually portends to being good a pitching.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Feb 5, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
one* of the most....
sigh
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Feb 5, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
I think we've agreed to disagree...
Utility infielders are a dime a dozen…really great pitchers are not.
I didn’t say utility infielders. I said infielders. Great first basemen, second basemen, shortstops, and third basemen—none of those are “a dime a dozen”.
To demonstrate we have lots of pitching on the way (or just arrived), here are some names: Bud Norris, Felipe Paulino, Sammy Gervacio, Chia-Jen Lo, Jordan Lyles, Ross Seaton, Tanner Bushue, Fernando Abad, Edgar Ferreira, Kyle Dydalewicz, Polin Trinidad… among others.
I wouldn’t be opposed to taking one really big arm in the early rounds, but I’d like to see the main focus placed on hitters.
Exactly. We have a bunch of guys who, if they pan out, would make a great major league rotation. Outside of Mier, we do not have a single infielder I see sticking as a starter at the major league level.
by seanbergmanrules on Feb 5, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
None of those guys jump off the page to me...
I was referring to a great pitcher (Nolan Ryan type guy), and granted, there may not be anyone like that in this year’s draft, that’s ok…if not, by all means, shore up the infield with some guys who’ve got some good pop in their bats.
by titansfan4ever on Feb 5, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Roy O was selected in the 23rd round.
Just cause a pitcher is selected in the early rounds doesn’t guarantee anything. Pitchers also can’t pitch 162 games a year, position players can.
by Timothy De Block on Feb 5, 2010 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Rick Hague
I wouldn’t be surprised if we took the Rice product in the 1st round. The 8th pick is probably too high for him but I could see us taking him with the 19th pick. He’s an athletic kid who plays SS (although we’d move him to 3rd where he played on the USA team), can field well, a decent bat, works hard, a team leader…etc… Sounds very similar to our last 2 1st round picks.
By the way...
Hague is from Spring, out of Klein Collins, not that it really matters in terms of who we decide to draft. But it’s a nice bonus that he’s from the Houston area if we wind up selecting him.
Best available
I fall into the “best player available” with a slight pitching bias category. Generally the odds of a single player making it all the way to the majors and actually being good are slim, so I wouldn’t pick infielders because we lack them right now. You never know what will happen. If a really good SS fell to us at #8 I would still pick him, knowing that I can’t count on Mier to be what we want him to be.
Secondly, I think most teams would value young starting pitching more than anything else. So, I would have no problem stockpiling quality arms, with the thinking that if we have a significant need for a position player we can trade that highly valuable young pitcher for that position player.
A great example is the Rays. They have too many awesome young arms that they could trade a Wade Davis, or a J. Hellickson for a very good position player just because the pitchers are valued so high. (However, they are pretty much covered for pos. players as well, stupid Rays)
I agree with what baggs said.
The arm injury rate is so atrocious for young pitchers that you have to keep stockpiling them. I agree that the Astros have more depth in young pitchers than position players. But, honestly, it’s a realistic possibility that not a single one of those pitchers make it to the Astros starting rotation. Arm injuries can destroy a whole wave of pitching prospects, and when you combine that with the normal possibility that some won’t achieve their potential….
I don’t know, I have to disagree with some of that. First:
Generally the odds of a single player making it all the way to the majors and actually being good are slim, so I wouldn’t pick infielders because we lack them right now.
I’m not sure how these two things are supposed to relate? The odds being low for any given player (by the way, they increase significantly when you only look at early round picks) doesn’t mean you shouldn’t draft for need.
…we can trade that highly valuable young pitcher for that position player.
First, how often do you actually see prospect for prospect trades? Seems to me you often see big league player for prospects, or big league player for big league player(s), but you don’t often see trades that just involve minor leaguers.
Second, if this is true, it seems like position players would actually be more valuable. In the article David linked above, early round hitters are listed as having by far the best average WAR results. So you’d be getting more value for trades by selecting position players; you also don’t have to worry as much about injury diminishing the player’s trade value, because position players are not as susceptible (especially young prospects).
It seems to me, all else being equal, you should draft for position players. When you add in organizational need, that tips the scale even farther in that direction for the Astros.
I’m not sure how these two things are supposed to relate?
I am saying that if the best (skill/talent wise) player available in the draft is a SS we should draft him regardless of the fact that “we have lots of pitching on the way” which is at most an uncertainty, or the fact that we have a possible future SS in Mier already, because there is no guarantee that any of those players will make it to the majors. In fact, odds are that most will not. So draft on talent.
First, how often do you actually see prospect for prospect trades?
First, I never said it had to be prospect for prospect, which does happen btw. (Volquez > Hamilton, Wallace > Taylor…) I said trade a pitching prospect for a position player need. (Ex. Florida trading pitching prospect Aaron Thompson to Washington for Nick Johnson to fill a need) *FYI, Aaron T. was never ranked higher than 8th in the Marlins system.
Second, who would get more back in a trade? Clay Bucholz or Colby Rasmus? Seems obvious yet they were ranked back to back (4,5) by BA in their top 100. Or Travis Snider vs Brett Anderson? Ranked (6,7) in 2009? The pitchers have more value.
So, my point being that when going into a draft I wouldn’t put a whole lot of stock in what we currently have in the the lower levels of our system. I would just draft the best available player, (and for me an emphasis on pitchers.)
I'd prefer
us taking infielders and pitchers with our first 4 picks, but honestly I don’t care. The past two drafts I have been up in arms and disagreed with our first round pick. I though Castro was taken too early and I was afraid of Mier because I couldn’t get the second coming of Adam Everett out of my head when considering him (evidently that’s Manzella). So now I will be happy and have faith in whoever our Stros pick.
If I could pick any player in the draft right now I would pick Christian Colon. Yes he’s a SS and we have Mier but like baggs said above you can’t expect Mier to become a major league player after one season of minor league ball. Plus most SSs turn into 2nd basemen anyways. He didn’t pan out for us except for one at bat but that was Chris Burke. Burke was Tennessee’s SS and made the move to 2B. I also think that would be huge to have the entire middle of the field C, 2B, SS, CF shored up for years! Not many teams can say that. You can usually shore up 1B or 3B through free agency easier than those positions too. Even if Colon is a true SS it does seem that teams value SSs through trades more than almost any other position player. Everyone wants the next Jeter, Hanley, Rollins or Tulo to plug into their system for the next 10 years. With all that said I don’t expect Colon to be there at 8. I think he’ll be gone in the top 5 picks.
- I’d be happy with LeVon Washington since he has experience at 2B too.
- Harper won’t drop and if he does there’s something seriously wrong with him and it wouldn’t be smart to take him if teams pass on the kid who already has an SI cover to his credit.
- Taillon seems like a pipe dream too but it’d be a nice one to get.
- Rick Hague wouldn’t be bad even if taking him at 8 might be a little early.
- Zach Cox’s K rate scares me too much. I don’t know if strike zone discipline is something that can easily be taught. I think you have to stay away from him. I rather not have another Jonathan Gaston in our system.
Best case scenario we take Colon. I think we’ll actually end up getting LeVon Washington, Rick Hague or one of the many high school arms early in the draft.
In regards to our first compensatory and maybe 2nd first round pick two familiar names who you might recognize and could be taken are Brett Eibner and Chad Jones. Even though Heck wasn’t here yet, do remember that we selected both of them in the 2007 draft and they each went to college instead so Tal Smith, our scouts and front office are very familiar with these kids and do like them. Will Heck veto either of these kids? Who knows but I’m just saying both of these kids are projected to be taken in the 1st compensatory and we shouldn’t be surprised if they’re taken. I saw each of them play in the college world series a year or two ago and Jones didn’t impress me much but Eibner really did. He’s an OF-er which we don’t need but he has a lot of tools and can flat out play.
He played both and has chosen or is projected to choose baseball
Check out some of the mock drafts that have the compensatory round and 2nd round predicted and he’ll likely be on there.
Oh hey didn’t realize it was you who posted. Yeah you have ur own blog with good research so u likely know more than me. What’s the scoop on Jones exactly b/c I know he did pitch for LSU in college?
When he declared for the NFL Draft, he announced he wouldn't play this spring.
He wants to focus on preparing for the draft and such. I don’t blame him. I’m told he’s a second-rounder for football, and the contract he’d get there is worth more than the bonus he’d get for baseball.
The best possibility is that he ends up like a Jake Locker pick a year ago, going around the tenth and signing for a reasonable bonus based upon a promise that he’ll only play for that team if he goes back to baseball within the five year statute of limitations on that contract.
Thought I heard he chose baseball or had a better future in baseball but could be wrong. Not a rarity lol
I heard he chose football, too
I think he declared early for the NFL 2010 draft. Now, since that happens in April and the MLB draft isn’t till June, he could concievably leverage his choice in football for a career in baseball. However, he’s a great returner and a pretty good safety, so I could see him going within the first four rounds of the NFL draft.
by David Coleman on Feb 5, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
Mesac Laguna
Fallas’ blog says that the Astros will shift him from 1st base to outfield. They think he is athletic and can handle the outfield. Whether that makes the Offerman and Gomez comparison more reasonable, I don’t know. Fallas says he isn’t a big money signing, but the articles from Nicaragua make it seem like that…because it is big money there.

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