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The Official Wandy vs. the Astros Arbitration Thread

Since we're going to have the last big decision of the offseason come down this morning, I wanted to open up a thread so we can all talk about it, update when we hear new information and generally discuss why the Astros have such a different view of Wandy's worth. As DQ mentioned just a bit ago, in reference to this story:

I don't know exactly who the arbiters are or how the process works, but if Tal Smith throwing out July's numbers succeeds, then I want to get in that line of work.

Tal Smith is one of the best at his job. But, interestingly enough, the arbiters who will be deciding the case have all been more pro-player than in past seasons. Look at the numbers in this article. The three arbiters in question, Richard Bloch, Elizabeth Neumeier and Fredric Horowitz have all had a history of siding with players. Each one, in fact, has served on an arbitration panel in the past two seasons which has come down on the side of the player. This isn't to suggest they will definitely side with Wandy this time, but if you look at the historical figures, ownership is way ahead of the players. In the past five seasons, there has only been one other time when the players won more cases than the owners, and that was in 2009. If Wandy wins, that'd be two straight seasons where the players triumphed, reversing a trend that's over 25 years old.

I'm not as interested in crunching his numbers right now as I am looking at the long-term impact. The last time the Astros took a starting pitcher to arbitration was Daryl Kile in 1997, right before he was a Cy Young candidate and promptly left for greener pastures. Is that where Houston is headed with Wandy?

UPDATE: Alyson Footer just tweeted the following:

The arbitor ruled in favor of the Astros. Wandy Rodriguez will earn $5 million in 2010.

I guess that settles that. My question still remains, how much damage does this do to Wandy's relationship with the team? Is this a guy they can count on now, can they still come to a long-term agreement with him? Should they even try?

The Astros payroll is now also set right about 95 million (thanks to Brocail's 250,000 buyout for 2010), which is a 12.25 million dollar decrease from 2009. That still puts them in top half of the league salary-wise.

UPDATE II from HLP:

All in all, Wandy may have asked for too much. The arbitrators probably aren't that knowledgeable about advanced metrics or anything even close, so his career W-L record, ERA, and injury history probably weighed into their decision a great deal. Ed Wade wins again.

This is Ed Wade’s second “win” as Astros’ GM in arbitration hearings. The question is, does this affect Wandy’s willingness one way or another to sign a multi year contract with the Astros in the future? Would the Astros even consider signing him to such a deal, considering his age and mixed history of success?

Poll
Should Wandy win his arbitration case?
Yes
35 votes
No
78 votes

113 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 20 comments |

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Wandy loses

after an exceptional season and Hart wins after a crappy season. About 5 million for each. WTH…

by ol Pete on Feb 18, 2010 9:45 AM CST reply actions  

The 2 million difference in salary for one year

is more than many people earn in a lifetime.
 

It blows my mind that we can debate whether a pitcher is worth $5 million or $7 million; and whether his feelings are hurt for only getting $5 milllion. But we do and do so without any sense of fantasy. Amazing.

Let’s see: My average hourly raise the past two years was 60 cents, which was offset by higher costs in healthcare plan absorbed by employees. Maybe I should have gone to arbitration for 80 cents an hour raise; or maybe for an additional $1000 an hour raise like Wandy did .

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Feb 18, 2010 9:50 AM CST reply actions  

That thought crosses my mind once or twice every offseason. It’s like we’re talking about monopoly money.

by David Coleman on Feb 18, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to tick anyone off, but these are also people who have an extraordinary skill and represent a small proportion of professional baseball players all over the world.

by timmy_ on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

True, and they make an obscene amount of money for the owners and MLB. I don’t begrudge the players making the money. The sums just become very hard to comprehend after a while, when you put it into perspective.

by David Coleman on Feb 18, 2010 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

You also have to remember that focusing on baseball as your profession is a huge gamble. In minor league baseball, the pay is bad, you’re traveling constantly (so you have no time for another job during the season and have to find some way to make ends meet during the off-season), and your chances of actually making it to the big leagues and real money are slim at best.

On top of all that, you’re giving away the best years of your life for that chance—from age 18 through much of your twenties or longer, in most cases.

The only guys who remotely approach riding some kind of gravy train are the ones who get signed in the first couple rounds and get a big bonus. Even then, it requires a tremendous amount of dedication in your formative years to get to that point.

I don’t mind that Major League Baseball players make a lot of money. As far as I’m concerned, they’ve earned it.

by OremLK on Feb 18, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, Joe...

comparing professional athletes’ salaries to your own is not really possible. It’d be like comparing your salary to the salary of a day laborer in a Mongolian rice field.
If the laborer asked for a 5 cent a month raise, he’d be asking for too much.

The supply/demand economics of a quality starting pitcher are a bit different than whatever you do… and I don’t mean that as an attack on you in particular. I can be replaced and although I’d like to think that my company would lose a good deal of productivity, it wouldn’t impact their bottom line as if one-fifth of the Astros’ starting rotation was not there anymore.

Finished Strong.

by Baggs5 on Feb 18, 2010 10:24 AM CST reply actions  

no offense taken

I wrote a great anaylytical response and then for some reason it did not post. That may explain why I only get 60 cent an hour raises.

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Feb 18, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

After reading the Biz of Baseball article in the the fanshots earlier (before the arbitration decision), I was persuaded that Wandy’s agent probably aimed too high, meaning that he might win if he had asked for $500,000 less ($6.5 million). Wandy’s proposed number was on the high side compared to what comparable pitchers proposed in arbitration (e.g., Edwin Jackson asked for $6.25 million). Even if the player deserves more than the Company proposes, the agent can hurt his case if he proposes a number which the arbitrators think is too high.

I really doubt that this decision creates any problems between Wandy and the Astros. I think the prospect of those kinds of reactions is usually overblown. Both the team and the player know this is a business, and the arbitration is just part of the business. My guess is that the liklihood of a long term deal right now is lessened because the Astros won. If Wandy had won, the Astros would have had more incentive to seek a long term deal. But, given that Wandy thinks he is getting less than he deserves, why would he agree to a long term deal, knowing that he can aim for a lot more in free agency after 2011?

by clack on Feb 18, 2010 10:47 AM CST reply actions  

A big problem with Wandy's argument lied in the stats

In more traditional statistics, Wandy doesn’t look nearly as impressive: 51-52 W-L with a 4.33 ERA and only one 200+ inning season. Unfortunately, things like his impressive FIP, tERA and xFIP marks don’t get nearly the same attention, obviously.

A guy like Wandy would get some pretty big money on the open market, but he was looking for a huge raise for a guy who just had his first season with more than 10 wins, and he was still only two games above .500 for the year. Not that W-L record and ERA mean much of anything at all, but the arbitrators do look at that stuff.

Guys with similar ERA and W-L marks to Wandy just didn’t get $7M in their second arb year.

I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on Feb 18, 2010 12:45 PM CST reply actions  

Is there any evidence that W-L record is even considered?

I think that’s more mythology than anything else. His ERA last year was 3. I’d think that rates highly among all pitchers, not just people in his arbitration class.

by ol Pete on Feb 18, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, I doubt that W-L record has much influence. I think the basic stats, like ERA and Ks, BBs, etc., and how those stats relate to the “comparable pitchers” is probably most important. I don’t think it’s limited to just last year’s ERA, though. Awards are allowed to be considered, and Wandy’s pitcher of the month awards and Astros’ pitcher of the year award can be considered.

by clack on Feb 18, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

But when looking at pitchers who have similar career numbers

they just weren’t getting $7M through the arbitration system. His agents shot high on the hopes that his impressive ERA last year and his underlying performance would outweigh his relatively unimpressive career marks in ERA and W-L record (which they do in fact look at, arbitrators aren’t exactly sabermetricians, the system is broken partially because of the way that the players are evaluated).

Why do you think Corey Hart got a raise? Based on his raw numbers, players with similar raw numbers at the same point in the arbitration process got similar to or more than Hart got. Wandy just didn’t have the numbers to set a precedent.

If the arbitrators were doing their work based on complex metrics and underlying, factor-adjusted data, I would think that Wandy would’ve won his case.

I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on Feb 19, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Wandy is worth the $7 million

But I hope that we can work out some kind of long term deal with him for at least a few years.

by entropic soul on Feb 18, 2010 7:07 PM CST reply actions  

I’m in no rush to sign him to a long-term deal. Let’s see him do it again before locking him up for big money.

Also, does this mean the team has $2M for someone like Felipe Lopez?

by jmike on Feb 18, 2010 9:28 PM CST reply actions  

That would be an interesting signing.

He’s really not good enough to play shortstop, but he would make for a nice utility infielder that would immediately become their best hitting infielder outside of Berkman. I still can’t believe that he hasn’t been signed, are teams really that down on his character and work ethic?

I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on Feb 19, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't get it.

A guy coming off a 4.6 WAR season ought to be getting more than just a few nibbles at the beginning of Spring Training, attitude problems or not.

We’ve been discussing #2 hitters in that other post on the front page—I think Lopez would be a good fit for that role on the Astros.

by OremLK on Feb 19, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I like Lopez as a No. 2 hitter. He is speedy enough, and he is just a tough out.

by clack on Feb 19, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions  

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