Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Bracketology 2012: Duke Finally Steps Up To The No. 1 Line

The Astros in September, Jeff Bagwell vs. The Big Hurt and Chris Sampson wastes little effort

Zach Levine's latest blog post in The Houston Chronicle details the Astros' schedule month by month, keying on a possible September run. Our opponents in the season's last month include the Nationals, Reds (twice), Pirates, Cubs and Brewers. Of course, unless the Astros can win a few games early, a September run won't mean very much. Looking back at recent seasons, September hasn't been kind in the post-World Series years:

Year September Record
2006 16-11
2007 12-15
2008 15-9
2009 10-17

 

One of the most feared hitters of the 1990s/2000s called it a career this past Thursday. Frank Thomas announced that he is retiring after a 19-year career that saw The Big Hurt play for the White Sox, Athletics and Blue Jays. For Astros fans, surely our memories of Thomas are twofold: 1) he was part of the 2005 White Sox team that ruined our dreams of a World Series championship (though Thomas did not play in the postseason), and 2) that he shares a birthday (5/27/68) with Jeff Bagwell.

Side by side, the two slugger's numbers are similar, although Thomas has the advantage in counting statistics because he played in 172 more games. Before I did the math, I thought Thomas played in closer to 400 games more than Bags, simply by virtue of those four extra seasons played. That wasn't the case. Using categories that HOF voters may find important, Bagwell more than holds his own with a 500 HR club member:

Player Career OPS+ All Star Game Appearances
MVP(s)/Top Ten Finishes 20 HR/10 SB Seasons Seasons of Badass Facial Hair
Jeff Bagwell 149 4 1/6 10 15
Frank Thomas 156 5 2/9 0 0

 

Bagwell was more well-rounded, with 10 seasons of 10+ SBs and one Gold Glove, but Thomas' advantage in games played, home runs and a ridiculous 1667/1397 BB:K ratio make it a close call on who had the better career. WAR has Bags squeaking out a victory over Thomas 79.9 to 75.9, not surprisingly on the strength of Bagwell's superior base-running and defense.

Now, I'm not an expert on the Hall of Fame.  Frankly when Bagwell is up for induction in 2011, it will be the first year I really care about who gets in. However, recent inductee Jim Rice has a career WAR of 41.5 and played 16 seasons. I realize that statistics aren't and shouldn't be the one criterion on which to judge a baseball player, but a per season WAR of 2.6 seems a tad low for someone in the same club as Ted Williams and Honus Wagner.

Pitchers from the Astros have made a habit of making some obscure lists this offseason. Felipe Paulino and Bud Norris are great at inducing swings and misses, as is Samuel Gervacio. Last week, Chris Sampson took his turn as list maker, but in a surprising role: efficient strikeout pitcher.

Basically, during the past three seasons, Sampson is among the best at keeping his pitch counts relatively low in at bats that resulted in strikeouts. The best in baseball in this range from all-time greats like Greg Maddux and Trevor Hoffman to journeymen like, well, Sampson. There are strikeout pitchers and finesse pitchers, veterans and semi-prospects. So on and so on. There's not a great deal of correlation between any one stat and this statistic, which was introduced by the author of the post.

Taking a look at Chris' plate discipline statistics, my puzzlement only grew. Paired against league-average rates, Sampson's contact rates since 2007 were all higher than average. His highest contact rate was in 2007, when his 87.8 percent rate compared to a league average of 80.8 percent. That 7 percent difference is nothing to sneeze at. Since 2007, he's been moving closer to parity with the league, but this does nothing to show how Sampson has proven to be as efficient as he has in striking hitters out.

Perhaps not surprisingly, hitters are more aggressive at swinging at his pitches in the strike zone, since nothing he throws is going to leave a hitter shaking in his cleats. Maybe the fact that Sampson induces his fair share of ground balls has something to do with his proficiency in keeping his pitches/K low?

Again as the author states, although a full pitch separates the best from the worst in this category, the average of 4.8 pitches/K has a standard deviation of only .15 pitches. Not a whole lot, and for the most part, not something to really get that excited or upset about. The fact that Chris Sampson made the list at all is both surprising and oddly satisfying.

Comment 6 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Frank Thomas was a poor defensive player, and played more than half his games as a DH. That probably is his Achilles Heel, in terms of HOF potential. Historically, the Hall of Fame has not been kind to first basemen. By that, I mean relatively fewer first basemen make it into the Hall of Fame, despite the higher batting stats generally associated with the position. Presumably that is because first basemen are viewed as lumbering sluggers who play the position because they don’t have the athletic skill for other defensive positions. If that’s true, Thomas could be at a disadvantage, and Bagwell could benefit from his baserunning and fielding ability.

ESPN and other new sources recently have played up the assumption that Thomas is one of the few sluggers of his era who didn’t use steroids. Given that some people look at Bagwell as a possible steroid user, this could give Thomas an advantage. (If we are going to use speculation, however, I’m not sure that Thomas should be given a pass on this issue simply because he was physically large before he began playing in the majors.)

Really, both guys probably belong in the Hall of Fame, and it’s a great coincidence that they were born on the same day.

by clack on Feb 15, 2010 9:59 AM CST reply actions  

i agree

and think that while thomas is the bigger name, bagwell (and biggio for that matter) will do well in hof votes because the most well respected writers like gammons and bill james speak so damn highly of both….i’ve posted james’ list of his top 100 players, and bagwell and biggio both make it. i think james probably has them both a little too high, but then again, he’s bill freaking james!

The Crawfish Boxes, Astros blogging at its finest.

by Evan Hochschild on Feb 15, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Bill James

Has a secret love affair with Biggio, his name comes up quite a bit when speaking of Bill James. From reading Joe Posnanski’s blog, James likes the underrated/unappreciated types of players such as Biggio.

Here’s a link I found of him discussing this very topic. http://www.slate.com/id/2184797

The second page get’s a little rough, but hits on what I believe a lot of us were feeling.

by Timothy De Block on Feb 16, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions  

I like Bagwell and Thomas

I was fortunate that Frank Thomas played AA ball in Birmingham (before internet dominated my life). I went to maybe ten games to see him (including one nice double header). It seemed he hit at leadt one homerun a game while here. While his reputation (even when here) was that he was not a gppd major league fielder, he made every play at first as I recall.

Jeff Bagwell did it all. Underappreciated are his anticipation and range of fielding and his smart baserunning. Seeing him charge home on expected bunts was striking. I was often amazed at his smart baserunning. His batting stance, of course, is historically unique. A Bagwell swing and miss could take your breath away. But he will make the Hall of Fame because he and Craig Biggio personified and were the team leaders of the Houston Astros in the team’s most succesful decade.

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Feb 15, 2010 9:48 PM CST reply actions  

Bags is a stud

Bagwell is a little bit like the Larry Bird of baseball. When it’s all said and done Bird’s numbers aren’t going to stack up with many of the players today because of missing games due to injuries and playing quite a few when he was injured. He had a short career as well due to his injuries. Bagwell is in that same boat. His numbers would be ridiculous if he didn’t suffer so many injuries. Even playing hurt so many seasons he was still a dominant and intimidating hitter. Bagwell played in the Astrodome the majority of his career which is one of the biggest pitcher’s ballparks in MLB.

I think both player deserve to be in the Hall as well as Biggio when he’s finally eligible.

by Iceman 1 on Feb 15, 2010 10:11 PM CST reply actions  

Any chance hall of fame voters will actually take into consideration things like park factors? Bagwell would have put up some numbers if he played at Comiskey.

by jmike on Feb 15, 2010 11:21 PM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Crawfishboxes, the SBNation blog for the Houston Astros.

TCB Tweets!

    

Current Series

3 game series vs Rockies @ Minute Maid Park

Sat 04/07 6:05 PM CDT
Sun 04/08 1:05 PM CDT

NL Central Standings

W L PCT GB STRK
Chicago 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0
Cincinnati 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0
Houston 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0
Milwaukee 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0
Pittsburgh 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0
St. Louis 0 0 .000 0 Lost 0

(updated 2.13.2012 at 6:03 AM CST)


Managing Editors

Tcb_icon_small Timothy De Block

Old_school_dome_logo_small David Coleman

Editors

Nsapcs13_large_small clack

H_astros_small Subber10

Astrobritrs2_small AstroB

Small conroestro

Small native_astro

Small CRPerry13

Authors

Astros_logo121009_small OremLK

This-is-my-boom-stick_small allphilla

Th_houston-astros-logo-3_small Will Bonn