Will Bud Norris' arm fall off? Not literally, but Astros fans should be worried
Hearken back to the dog days of summer. If you're like me, there is snow on the ground outside and thinking back to those days is a more pleasant thought. Dreams of warmth and sunshine aside, let's focus on late July and the emergence of Bud Norris on the 25-man roster. His usage in the majors raised many questions, like:
- Should one of the Astros only starting pitching prospects be allowed to dangerously rack up IP in a lost season?
- Where should the Astros look to set the bar in terms of shutting Norris down?
- Why are they letting him throw this many innings?
- Will he get hurt?
- Why did they wait until he was "fatigued" to shut him down?
"What's all the fuss about?" For those off us with shallow memory banks or excellent repression skills, the fact that Norris missed a substantial portion of 2008 with an elbow injury may have slipped by the wayside. I can't find a link to corroborate this, but I remember reading that Norris' elbow strain was so serious that doctors initially advised surgery to repair it, but also gave Norris the option to see if good ol' fashion rest would work as well. Like I said, no link, but I'm so sure about it that I'm throwing it out here.
When Norris came back in 2008, the Astros slotted him in as the closer of the Hooks. Prior to that, Norris had been a starter. Ostensibly this move was to save his arm and a policy preference that obviously had limited permanance for the Astros. He racked up 80 IP during the regular season for the Hooks, and then went to the Arizona Fall League, where he racked up another 19 IP. His total for the year? 99 IP. His highest inning total to this point was 110 2/3...from college (source).
Now, this isn't to say Norris should have been limited on the number of innings he threw in 2008. Rather, he shouldn't have been allowed to pitch a tremendous number over his 2008 level the next season. That fact had us all concerned in July, August, and September. To add numbers to the discussion,HLP brought the Verducci effect to our attention back in July. The crude rule is that if a young pitcher increases their innings by over 30 in one year, prepare yourself for the misery of his ineffectiveness/injury the following year.
To be fair, there are plenty of exceptions to the Verducci effect, but many more examples as well. Also, we should keep in mind that Norris threw 99 IP in 2008 and a combined 175 2/3 IP in 2009. For those slow on the mental math, that's an increase of 78 2/3 innings, or more than double the threshold of the Verducci effect. That's enough to send up a warning flag. However, the Astros brass seemed to think that Norris could handle the added work load (see the previous link).
We should credit the Astros for one thing: they were effective in limiting the amount of fatigue that Norris could experience at the big league level. Norris had nine category one starts, and only one category two start in the majors. That's important, because it limited the number of Norris' Pitcher Abuse Points, which have a strong correlation with injury.
The fact that he was effectively managed last year doesn't mean we got to write off his massive jump in innings. As Will Carroll elaborates, his concern is that:
Norris is facing a huge innings increase, not only year over year, but coming back from a year where his elbow was just returning to form. He's good, but he's very risky and I worry that a complete season from him will result in a breakdown along the way or worse, [that] he fatigues hard in the second half. Then again, with all those issues, [the Astros] have to try and get some value out of him, right? He's never going to be a [No.] 1 [starter] or even a two, so you run him out there and see what happens. Maybe Ed Wade is crazy like a fox and this team contends. If so, Norris could be a big part of that ... but I don't think so.
The first thing that jumped out at me was Carroll's fear that Norris will fatigue hard in the second half of 2010, a la Chris Sampson in 2009. Why? Because Norris was already shut down in 2009 due to fatigue. No one knows to what extent he was battling that issue, but I imagine that twenty-four year old pitcher in his rookie season probably held his cards too close to his chest in terms of his overall well-being. The point is, there could already be substantial damage done. Even if there wasn't in 2009, Carroll cautions that a full season of Norris in 2010 is likely to result in some more damage. My guess is that Norris probably can get through 2010 relatively intact. What I think Carroll alludes to is that 2011 and 2012 could be a wash as Norris battles injuries.
As I mentioned earlier, the Astros felt like Norris had the body size, mechanics, or possibly just a pact with the devil to keep him healthy through his innings jump. They may be right. The best quantification of Norris' risk, I believe, can be viewed from his PECOTA projection. His Beta score, which measure's the system's observed variance in Norris' projection stands at 1.14. Average starts at 1.00, and anything above one means there's more risk in the observed variance and projection. A 1.14 is high.
Of course, with injuries, no one really knows. There's a chance everything I've written here is meaningless because Norris is a Clydesdale that can just power through his work. I'm not convinced of that. He's in the prime of the injury nexus and already suffered an elbow injury in 2008. There are too many reasons for concern, too many numbers that can be quoted, mechanical issues cited, etc. for the Astros to say they felt Norris could handle the work load—based on their knowledge of him—to hold up.
It's distressing, too. Norris' contribution to the Astros in 2010 and beyond is a necessity. Even if Norris is no more than a solid No. 3 starter, as Carroll postulates, the Astros need that. Hopefully Norris' 2009-2010 seasons aren't laying the foundation for a full system breakdown, but it's hard not to see the storm clouds forming.
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I would like to note that all the edits I did to this story
Did not save (because I clicked save at the 11th hour). In the process of not sounding like an idiot.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Feb 12, 2010 12:08 PM CST reply actions
Thanks
The story editor wouldn’t load fully, so I couldn’t edit anything. Craziness. I blame facebook.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Feb 12, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
We had a bit of server trouble unrelated to Facebook
Should be fixed now, or very shortly. Thanks for your patience!
proud to be creative director for SB Nation
I was a bit surprised we hadn’t covered this topic up to this point in the off-season. I know we had a lot of discussion on it with the season still going on.
I still think Norris will eventually end up as a reliever partly due injuries that may happen in the future. The other scenario is that he follows the career path of someone like Russ Ortiz who saw a significant jump in innings pitched in the minors. Once he reached the majors he had about 6 good years then started having injury issues.
In 1996 at the age of 22 Ortiz pitched 63.1 in the minors, the following year 1997 he pitched 141.2 a difference of 78.1 innings. In 1998 he pitched 50.2 in the minors and 88.1 in the majors for a total of 139 innings. Then in 1999 his first full year in the majors at the age of 25 207.2 innings. So at least their is some hope he’ll have success at the major league level for the next few years.
I did put the workload question to Footer last season and got the response that their is a difference in arm stress between pitching in the minors and majors. Which sounds like a lot of BS to me, but maybe someone can enlighten me and point me to some evidence that this is the case.
by Timothy De Block on Feb 12, 2010 1:11 PM CST reply actions
I’m sorry, Footer’s logic doesn’t make sense. To the extent that the young pitcher experiences more arm stress at the major league level, that is a major reason for being very conservative when he first begins pitching in the majors. If there is a higher level of arm stress at the major league level, it is due to the young pitcher trying to throw too hard, overthrowing sliders, etc., because of excitement and adrenalin. That’s why (in theory) in the first year, each inning at the major league level may carry the stress of multiple innings at the minor league level. That, in fact, is one of the reasons I was concerned about the number of innings that Norris was allowed to pitch in the majors last year.
I think, as clack points out, that's true
To a certain extent. As clack also points out, Norris threw too many innings for that to make any of that logic justifiable.
In terms of us not brining up the Norris issue, it is weird. I don’t know if I just repressed it, or if I just didn’t want to bring it up and so I just avoided it (have I actually made a distinction?). Either way, I’m depressed now.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Feb 12, 2010 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
on "not bringing it up.."
We discussed the issue extensively at the time Norris was pitching for the Astros, and the number of innings pitched was something the Astros could control. After that, my attitude became, “What’s done is done. Now we can only hope for the best.”
Plenty of examples of power pitchers with huge inning count jumps who are/were fine for years afterward. Also plenty of examples of organizations who did it right, but the pitcher still got injured during the “injury nexus”.
I agree there’s reason to believe the injury odds might have increased for Norris because of last year, but I’m not going to think of him as an injury waiting to happen. It’s possible the previous elbow problems were from a mechanical issue that his coaches corrected afterward. Let’s also remember that his body type profiles fairly well for avoiding injuries, with the only exception being that he’s pretty average in height.
let’s cross our fingers and hope for the best…what happens if the Astros end up releasing Paulino thinking Norris and Moehler are #4 and #5, then Norris gets hurt?? that would suck
Options
Isn’t Paulino pretty close to being out of options? I tried finding this information but was unsuccesful, if he is out of options, and have a bad spring he could end up like nieve last spring.
He is out of options. However, if he doesn’t make the rotation, I suspect he would be put in the bullpen. I suppose there is a chance he could be traded. He has quite a bit more value, given his talent level and high ceiling, than Nieve. So, I don’t think that he would be DFA’d like Nieve. McTaggert said, earlier this off-season, that Wade is aware of Paulino’s potential based upon numerous teams askng if he is available in trade.
There was also something odd about the Nieve release too. He was released very early in the spring, and I think he did something to piss off Cooper, even though its not clear what it was. Justice had alluded to some conflict in the week prior to the release. My recollection is that Nieve got mad after he pitched to one batter whom he walked, and Cooper removed him from the spring game, and Nieve caused a scene or something.

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