Wednesday Astros, etc Round Up
by HighLeveragePerformer on Sep 23, 2009 6:00 AM CDT
in Link Dumps
31 comments
If anyone has a thing for 67 year old chubby managers of one time NL championship teams, then you're in luck! The Astros' top choice for their managerial position may Jim Fregosi. Richard Justice is confident that Ed Wade, who made decisions in Philly to hire both Terry Francona and Charlie Manuel, will choose the right man to take the helm of the SS Astro.
Lest a pity party inadvertently break out for Cecil Cooper, injury news concerning Roy Oswalt and Alberto Arias should remind us of one reason why Coop was fired. Oswalt will head to Dallas to seek a second opinion from a specialist in bulging disks, while Alberto Arias will undergo arthroscopic surgery on his right knee. Arias, thankfully, should be ready to pitch in the Dominican Winter League, while Oswalt hopes to avoid surgery at all costs. A quote of Oswalt's I've read before strikes me as sorta scary:
...I don’t want to lose feeling in my leg
Yikes. Why he was asked to continue pitching even after he left a start early in August against Chicago, I do not know. As for Alberto, Coop made mince meat out of him after Chris Sampson was rendered useless after overuse. It's a downright irresponsible legacy he left, these injuries. True, he wasn't given the best starters in baseball, but when in doubt, he would more often than not make the walk from the dugout to the mound to pull a guy, rather than leave him in to take one for the team. I do not know if Alberto Arias' injuries are a direct result of his usage this season, but it certainly could not have helped. He is an ex-starter, and he actually pitched more innings in 2008 than in 2009. Cooper using him too frequently in back to back games is one area that may have hurt Alberto in the long run.
Beyond the Boxscore has a nice article on managerial longevity and similar subjects. Quality stuff as usual.
For those who like to play Monday Morning Quarterback...the Astros (like clack noted last week) could have drafted Derek Jeter in 1992 instead of Phil Nevin. A late 1990s double play combination of Derek Jeter and Craig Biggio probably would have made my 13 year old head explode with excitement, so maybe it's a good thing we used the likes of Ricky Gutierrez and Tim Bogar...
Speaking of Bogar, we've had a few nights to sleep on the firing of Cecil Cooper, and more importantly, to ponder the options to replace Coop. In light of that, after weighing the facts, pros and cons of the names thrown out there, who would you like to be the next manager of the Houston Astros?
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Cooper pity party....
(to use your term). I notice that RJ Anderson at Fangraphs sort of questions the firing of Cooper. I say “sort of” because he admits that he hasn’t seen enough of Cooper to know whether he managed well or not. His criticism is that Cooper isn’t the worst issue for the team and he would be less worried about Cooper and more worried about the team’s unrealistic expectations. This view appears to be the primary “defense” around the internet for Cooper.
I just don’t get the idea that somehow we shouldn’t correct a bad manager situation just because the team has other problems. Yes, the Astros have “other problems,” like Carlos Lee’s overpriced contract. But nothing can be done about Lee’s contract. Why wouldn’t you correct the problems which can be easily corrected? The fact that you can’’t do anything about Lee’s contract is irrelevant to the decision to replace a bad manager. As an admittedly imperfect example, this is like telling someone with a clunker car: “don’t replace the obviously torn fan belt because the car has a lot of problems.” Well, if you have to drive the car and you can’t afford to fix the other problems, you at least try to fix the obvious problem which allows you to continue driving.
As far as the suggestion of Fregosi as the next manager, all I can say is, “please, don’t do it.” At his current age, Fregosi has “caretaker manager” written all over him. I don’t think that is what the Astros should want.
by clack on Sep 23, 2009 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
It’s been irritating me in articles all over the place how people always talk about how it’s “not Cooper’s fault”. That has nothing to do with whether he’s a good manager… obviously. And he does deserve some portion of the blame, though not all of it.
by OremLK on Sep 23, 2009 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, it's intriguing to me that some of these writers
seem so unwilling to go back and look at the primary sources on Cooper. Just take a glance at any of the Astros fan websites (here, SnS, Astrosdaily, whatever) and see what fans were saying about Cooper over the past two years. It’s not that hard. Maybe that only seems obvious to me because I’ve been reading those sources, but I think it’s also because I’m not an idiot.
And, yes, Anderson has set up a fantastic false dichotomy here.
Your friendly neighborhood Dream Shake mod.
by Only_A_Lad on Sep 23, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
but its almost universal that all managers are hated by some fans at all times. It can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I think Macha has been excellent, but there is endless noise about him with great reasons like he doesn’t get thrown out of games and plays the wrong players in meaningless games.
Never mind that he can go out and cuss and chew out umpires or that his response is relative to the situation, he doesn’t have enough ‘fire.’
Never mind that Escobar is the guaranteed starting SS and great guy and great player Hardy is being shopped. Et cetera.
by ol Pete on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
but then one needs to be looking for specific criticisms. There are plenty of writers out there offering far more specific criticisms than “Coop sucks.” And I think most, if not all, criticisms of Cooper revolved around “Cooper can’t manage a pitching staff, he’s too much in love with hit-and-run and stealing, and he’s lost the confidence of his players.” Very little (if any) has revolved around “Not being aggressive enough” (indeed, his aggression has been the source of most criticism) or other assorted crap.
I just feel that the legitimate criticisms made by sabermetrically-inclined fans are being ignored by the sabermetric writers in favor of taking more shots at Drayton and Ed Wade. Instead of saying “this is a classic Wade move. What a dumbass,” maybe guys like Anderson should be saying, “See, Cooper is part of a group of managers out there who ignore everything we’ve ever said about baseball. The best thing the Astros could do right now is bring in a guy like Acta.” In other words, argue for stats-inclined reforms rather than make uninformed criticisms of the GM.
Your friendly neighborhood Dream Shake mod.
by Only_A_Lad on Sep 23, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
it’s very popular to beat a dead horse, and piling on the Astros is totally en vouge. i guess it has something to do with the astros having a high payroll and not making the playoffs, because it’s not like the astros have been a laughingstock for years or anything like that.
by HighLeveragePerformer on Sep 23, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, probably.
FWIW, BPro also calls Cooper a “scapegoat,” but Perrotto at least seems to recognize that Cooper is, you know, a bad manager.
I’d compare it to the Drew Sutton thing. When he was an Astro, Sutton was just some scrub. But when he gets traded, all of a sudden he’s a quality prospect and the Astros are stupid. When Cooper was an Astro, he was just another idiot manager in the Dusty Baker mold. But when he gets cut loose, the Astros made a mistake and the front office is just projecting its issues onto the field manager.
Your friendly neighborhood Dream Shake mod.
by Only_A_Lad on Sep 23, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"But nothing can be done about Lee’s contract."
He could be sold or traded. He’s got $18.5M/year @ 3 years left, and he’s worth… what? Perhaps $8M/year? Maybe a little more if Wade springs him as a last minute option in the winter to a desperate big market team?
We could pick up some good prospects and eat the the $10.5M/year left for ’10, ’11, ’12.
At some point, the opportunity cost of LF for three years and rebuilding the team faster needs to be considered.
by pel on Sep 23, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
crazy Pete's idea
bring him in for one of those body fat evaluations that uses submersion. Show him some of those plastic things that show how much volume 10 pounds of fat is. If you’ve ever seen one its pretty jarring. I could lose 20 – 30 pounds and the things are really big.
While he’s in his swim trunks – and give him bike shorts type – photograph him. Hire a sketch artist to draw him minus the lard. Give him a copy of the side by side and ask him to keep it visible in his home.
Have him carry around a weight equivalent to the extra baggage he is carrying now for just a day.
Ask him to take some pride in himself and respect the people who pay his salary. I think it has a good chance of working.
by ol Pete on Sep 23, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you get around Lee's no-trade clause?
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Sep 23, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It becomes limited after next season
Not sure what the exact terms of it are for the final two years of his contract. However, unless we’re willing to pay for a lot of his contract, he would be very hard to trade even then since his defense is so bad and he’s so expensive.
by OremLK on Sep 23, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truth Be Told
I forgot about the no-trade clause.
How did Tim get suckered into such a crappy contract with Lee? Lee wanted to come to Houston. It should have been easy, or at least he could have front-loaded the contract.
by pel on Sep 23, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like so many GMs
Purpura basically bid against himself.
Your friendly neighborhood Dream Shake mod.
by Only_A_Lad on Sep 23, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think the Cubs were looking at Lee too.
But still, 100mil is an insane figure.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Sep 24, 2009 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants and Orioles were bidding against the Astros. Cubs had already signed Soriano and were out of it. My recollection is that the Orioles dropped out at $100 million and the Giants bid $110 million, “forcing” the Astros to bid $105 million.
by clack on Sep 24, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of ticks you off when Carlos Beltran was only offered 86 million.
by timmy_ on Sep 24, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Young, smart, and works well with younger players
Those would be my suggestions. I’d like to see the Astros pick up a manager they plan to stick with for years, to provide some stability for the clubhouse. Right now it’s a team of aging veterans, but by 2012 there should be a totally different look.
Barring a ton of luck, we are going to stink next season anyway. So hire a manager for the future, who will also help develop the younger guys we already have.
Which is why I voted for Manny Acta. But I don’t care that much who it is specifically.
by OremLK on Sep 23, 2009 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Stating the obvious for the record
Astros with a 70-81 record cannot have a winning season and are pretty much guaranteed to have a losing record this year.
Astros and Reds are tied in the standings (and there’s no way the Pirates can catch the Astros this season)
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Sep 23, 2009 10:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's hope Wade
can work some magic in a managerial hiring as he’s been able to do in the draft.
by timmy_ on Sep 23, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the Chorn mentioned the name
Dave Duncan…id love that
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Sep 23, 2009 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I do hope they make a go at Duncan
But I was thinking pitching coach. Does he have any management experience?
by OremLK on Sep 23, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching coach or manager?
I always think of Dave Duncan as a pitchng coach and what a great steal it woud be to get him to be the Astros pitching coach.
It never occurred t me that maybe he would be a great Manager. But faced with theconcept, I must say, why not? He’s seen alot of baseball.
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Sep 23, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, when I read that I was pretty intrigued
It would definitely be nice to have a manager who understands pitching. Haven’t had that in a while.
Your friendly neighborhood Dream Shake mod.
by Only_A_Lad on Sep 23, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'd rather have him as pitching coach
But maybe offering him a management job would be the only way to get him, though. Maybe he would be a good manager.
by OremLK on Sep 23, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he even going to think about leaving
the good situation he has in StL?
The guy’s a freaking genius. Year after year he turns mediocre pitchers into solid ones, with whatever he uses (I read “Three Days in August”, which included excerpts about how he basically broke down every hitter with video, then assessed the pitches available in order to find a way to pitch to every guy.)
My brain will explode multiple times (yes, really) if the Astros manage to pinch him. Seems impossible though.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Sep 24, 2009 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan is angry with the Cardinals' front office...
and he openly says he may leave. His anger is due to the way that the Cardinals FO and Cardinals’ media treated his son, Chris Duncan. Also Dave Duncan is upset because the Cardinals took away his ability to have any influence on minor league pitching philosophy. LaRussa sympathizes with Duncan on these issues and said he won’t stand in his way if a better opportunity arises for him.
Cardinals’ GM says he will address Dave Duncan in the off-season, that he wants time for the anger to subside. So, it is possible that Cardinals will try to win him back. But as of now, it looks like a good chance he will leave.
by clack on Sep 24, 2009 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Duncan's reputation
I doubt he’ll be cheap.
by timmy_ on Sep 24, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan Ryan or Tony Gwynn
Would ’nt it be nice if we got someone like this to coach the team!!!!
by wadero on Sep 23, 2009 4:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
St. Louis
|
91 | 71 | .561 | 0 | Lost 6 |
|
Chicago
|
83 | 78 | .515 | 7.5 | Lost 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
80 | 82 | .493 | 11 | Won 3 |
|
Cincinnati
|
78 | 84 | .481 | 13 | Won 2 |
|
Houston
|
74 | 88 | .456 | 17 | Lost 3 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
62 | 99 | .385 | 28.5 | Lost 2 |
(updated 2.9.2010 at 11:43 AM CST)
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
