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An open letter to RJ Anderson

[ In response to RJ's article ]

What kind of a valid argument is really presented when the players pointed to as being "not good" aren't even with the team?  Further, I think there's a flaw in using WAR thresholds as proof positive of "good" and "bad. "What about Alberto Arais (.4 WAR in 32IP), LaTroy Hawkins (per ZIPS ROS 3.79 FIP...that's bad? Currently 23% LD% that'll likely come down), Jose Valverde (.3 WAR in 24IP)? Those guys are somehow bad? Or is it that because of limited playing time, thus far in 2009, they just haven’t accumulated an arbitrarily decided upon WAR threshold to "prove" they’re "good." To me, it seems more like the evidence present in this article isn't capturing a lot of the things that it intended.

15 days of no Lance Berkman somehow sinks the Astros in an NL Central in which even Matt Holliday to the Cardinals isn't enough to shake things up significantly?  Maybe the Astros not legitimate playoff contenders in other divisions, but does that make them not good relative to their divisional peers?  So perhaps "good" needs a stronger definition for this thesis to be more acceptable.  I would think that the context of the Astros division would likely be important.  BtB's latest Poor Man Standing's projects a four game spread between 1st and 4th in the NL Central with 84W's taking it.  Are any of those teams "good"?

The luck article pointed seems a little wonky in its methodology (estimating using an estimate? I'd like to see a justification for that).  Further, the Astros traditional Pythag Record is skewed by the fact that when back end starters have been bad—they've been really, really bad.  Does that actually speak to the quality of the team? I don't think so.  So, please, convince me.  I think accomplishing this task would take far more than macro analysis stats and a lot more actual knowledge of the team than has been demonstrated in this article.  However, I’m certainly open to the idea that the Astros are not a good team, possibly even a bad team, and that an objective case could be made for it, but that hasn’t been accomplished in your article.

I utilize Fangraphs just about every time I sit down to write about the Astros.  Sabermetrics drives my thinking and analysis of this team in just about all instances and yet I'm struck by the logical flaw present in this article.  It pretty much only uses evidence that supports its claim without justifying a) Why the terrible performance of players not currently on the Astros roster are some how relevant for their future, b) why the WAR thresholds you chose are valid and how it is that certain player’s who have seen limited playing time, but have outstanding WAR-rates don’t count as "good" players, and c) why Matt's article is a valid methodology that is universally applicable.  In other words, it presumes to be true what it intends to prove without providing proper justification for the presumption.  I genuinely respect your work wherever you publish it and owe a huge debt of gratitude to FanGraphs, but this reads like a recycled argument with logical loopholes that need to be addressed before I put stock into this argument.

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Looking at Justin's power rankings...

There are two things “he” doesn’t like about the Astros so far. One, the run differential doesn’t support the record. We’ve all been through all the Pythag issues. I know it’s not perfect, but it shouldn’t be ignored. Two, based on UZR/RZR and tRA, the Astros “should” have given up 23 more runs than they actually have. (And scored 8 more, to be fair.) One thing Justin doesn’t consider is strength of schedule.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/22/958219/btb-power-rankings-through-tuesday

Avoids the issue of the quality of RJ’s article, sure, but addresses the same topic.

Personally, while I don’t particularly like the Astros, I’ll be rooting for them, as close races are highly entertaining.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 27, 2009 5:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've said what I think about the article in another thread....

but, as it turns out, I read DQ’s crtique at the same time that I was ruminating over the interesting discussion in this thread at BBTF, which was started by MGL’s borderline-arrogant contention that much of the sabermetric community doesn’t really understand “regression to mean.” Since RJ’s article is really another version of the “regression to mean” argument, it was interesting thinking of the article in the context of some of the arguments back and forth in the BBTF thread. Regression to mean is based on the concept that an overall population tends to move toward the population mean over time. And that implies that most members of the population will move toward the population mean over time. But that means most, but not all, members should regress in the direction of the mean. The question is, how do you go about identifying players and teams which are playing at their true talent level? RJ Anderson’s article implies that this can be proven, in the case of the Astros—something which I think overstates the state of our knowledge.

The concept of “luck” is probably overused (and sometimes misused). In the context of RJ’s article, luck is all performance which doesn’t reflect the player’s true talent level. The problem is that we don’t know what the player’s true talent level is, and we can only make inferences from whatever statistical data we can observe. But true talent level varies over time, can be affected by injuries and repairs of injuries, players’ ability to make changes in their games, etc. In the case of the Astros, I see plenty of instances where our ability to judge player’s current talent level is difficult. Forecasting systems like ZIPS, PECOTA, etc., are weak at forecasting young players with little ML experience, and Arias and Fulchino are Astros players who probably were subject to this projection weakness. To some extent, Pence and Bourn fall in the same category. I have written previously about Tejada and the difficulty in forecasting the rate of decline for players like him, who sometimes even experience near-peak or peak performances in late years. I think it is very possible that Tejada, like Biggio, is adjusting his style of hitting as he gets older, and again, this is difficult to reflect in projection systems. None of the player projection systems handle injuiries and post surgery performance well. And the Astros are depending on two starting pitchers who are post-injury and post-surgery cases. The impact of TJ surgery, like Ortiz’s, in particular can make a ZIPS projection irrelevant. I think it is worth noting that the community WAR projection, which incorporates more detailed knowledge of the Astros’ players, projected a W/L record a couple of games above .500, which is considerably better than the “mainstream” forecasts.

If RJ’s article had simply concluded “the Astros might be this good, but I wouldn’t bet on this performance continuing,” I doubt that many of us at TCB would have reacted so negatively. I think the smug tone, though, that “we know this team is bad,” makes us think that the article is more preconception than analysis.

by clack on Jul 27, 2009 7:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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