"Toxic" Environment?
by Astrofan on Jul 10, 2009 12:31 AM CDT
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PrintA lot of us have heard multiple times in the club house that the environment is "toxic." Apparently Russ Ortiz isn't happy with Cooper at all. Jose De Jesus Ortiz posted a blog after tonights game and Russ pretty much rips Coop and the way he goes about his business. Russ has pitched well enough this year that he'll likely receive offers this off season and I highly doubt he'll be back with the Astros if they want him. I've read that a lot of guys are unhappy with Cooper and that hes lost the clubhouse. Personally I think its time for the Bud Selig hire to go a la Jimy Williams in 2004. If anybody else in the clubhouse feels this way towards Coop (which seems likely), I doubt he can spark much fire under their asses. Heres the link
Thoughts?
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That’s real manly of Cooper to send an “astros spokesperson” out to tell reporters he won’t talk about Russ Ortiz, all the while he is in his office, probably sulking. This isn’t the first time we get reports that Cooper is holed up in his office while clubhouse issues fester, rather than trying to deal with the problems. It’s not hard to imagine that players would lose respect for their manager.
Agreed
But at the same time, Ortiz’s whining gave me flashbacks to Chacon.
Sometimes I don’t think there are any grown-ups on this team, except maybe Pence (one of the younger players). Ironic.
Exactly
A different pitcher would have said “I didn’t have it tonight, but that’s not what matters. What matterrs is we won”
In Ortiz’s contract are stipulations for pitching so many innings he get’s so much money, so I believe this is less about the manager and more about the money. He’s complained about being moved to the bullpen before so it’s not surprising that he’s whining now. Let’s not forget he can give up a lot of runs in a hurry ala his last start.
I don’t mind the “let’s get rid of Cooper talk” but let’s do it because of the dumb moves he makes, not because a few players don’t like him. In which case pulling Ortiz that early may have been a dumb move, BUT it is close to the all-star break so you can afford to use your bullpen a little more, plus Wandy just pitched a complete game and the suspended game did not tax the pitching staff at all.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 10, 2009 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions
what does it say about the manager....
when this happens multiple times in his tenure with the Astros, and it doesn’t happen at all with other teams?
I do have to admit there is a lack of communication and I really don’t like reading the “I don’t know” quotes from Coop’s press conferences.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 10, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Coop’s decision to pull Ortiz in this game was pretty justified. The last time Ortiz was pitching like that, Coop left him in for almost 6 innings and he gave up 8 runs. That was his most recent start…against the Giants.
Coop has got to do what he thinks is right for the team and not just what’s right for Russ Ortiz’s feelings. Right now, this team needs Wins, and pulling Russ when he did looked like the best shot at getting one. I know Ortiz is a bend-but-don’t-break pitcher, but I think that it’d be reasonable to consider 6 hits, 2 walks, an HBP, and a WP to be closer to broken than bent. Maybe he could have turned things around and held the score at 4, but it could have just as easily looked like the Giants game. It would have sucked to be the only team this year that lost twice to the Nationals in one day.
As for how Cooper handles Russ on a personal level, there’s legit criticism there. OTOH, as an Astros fan, I don’t appreciate how open Ortiz is about using the Astros as his rehab showcase. As much as we joke about sports cliches, “at least we got the win” would have gone a long way for me. When I tuned in to the post-game, the way Ortiz was talking, I thought he’d been returned to the bullpen.
Cooper cannot manage pitching staffs. He has proven it. He should be fired. It was the third inning. You let pitchers work their way out of trouble at that point. He didn’t let him even go back to start the inning. If you want to take him out after he walks a batter, then do it then. At JD has said, at some point yuo have to show some confidence in your pitchiing staff. Cooper doesn’t do that. He cannot manage a pitching staff.
as for the points about Ortiz going public, I have a couple of responses...
And I’ll admit that it would be best if it didn’t happen.
But,when JJ Ortiz printed anonymous criticisms from players, which many of us guessed were Oswalt, people got upset that the criticisms were made anonymously and said that players shouldn’t be cowardly and should be willing to say what they have to say openly. It seems like Ortiz has done that. And what he said all comes back to one basic criticism: “the manager, the coaches, won’t communicate with me.” And, if Cooper really told him earlier in the year that “you aren’t my type of pitcher,” (which must have some truth, since Cooper refused to answer whether it’s true), I think the frustration with lack of communications is understandable.
When the Chacon stuff boiled over, it could be dismissed by Chacon’s reputation as a difficult person. However, Ortiz has a reputation as a professional who was well liked by every organization he has worked for. When you combine that with the “communications” problems that Oswalt has complained about, Paulino’s frustration in being jerked around by Cooper, etc., I think this is more than just “whining.”
I can’t comment about Ortiz using the Astros as his rehab showcase, because I haven’t heard him say anythig about that directly. To some extent, this may depend on whatever representations were made by Wade to Oritz when he was signed. In any event, I think you have to expect that players like Hampton and Ortiz are both paying attention to how managerial actions affect their ERA, for instance, when they were signed as rehab showcase projects. If you sign players like this to one year contracts at below market salaries in exchange for the opportunity to resurrect their careers, this shouldn’t be surprising.
I had thought maybe Ortiz was using the public statements so that he would be released and could sign elsewhere. But many of comments seemed too emotional to be premeditated. I think he just reached the boiling point. And Cooper doesn’t have the communications willingness / ability to deal with it before it boils over.
I’m in total agreement with you about Coop’s lack of communicating ability, particularly with the pitching staff. That alone should be enough grounds for firing, and I’ve got my fingers crossed that we’ll find a replacement before our younger guys start trickling in to the big club. I don’t like his preference for veterans, I don’t like how openly Coop wears his emotions and feelings about players on his sleeve, and I don’t like the way he seems to play favorites. And that’s not even taking into account his in-game mechanics. I gotta wonder what it’s going to take to see him get run out.
Ortiz was definitely speaking from the heart last night, so I don’t want to pick apart his statements for logical consistency or anything like that. People deserve a bit of slack in his situation, so FWIW, I retract my earlier comments about his attitude. That being said, I don’t think it was clearly a terrible idea to pull Ortiz after the third inning. I think you’re right about letting him start the 4th inning, just on a short leash. That would have been the optimal move from a player management POV…maybe he could stick around long enough to get to his spot in the lineup and pull him then, too. I actually have more faith in our bullpen than I do in 3/5ths of the rotation right now…and subbing in a better “pitcher” (although by committee) seemed right to me since they had a day off on Wed. and they’ll get time off when this series is over.
BTW
I didn’t get to see Ortiz pitch last night, since I came in around the 5th inning, so I don’t really know how well he was pitching in terms of “making his pitches”.
I started wondering this morning if Ortiz is hiding some soreness or anything. Results-wise, this was two rough games in a row for him, and he wasn’t up against some offensive juggernauts, either. Has he lost some velocity? Is it the defense behind him? Or is it just a rough patch, luck-wise?
I think part of Ortiz’s complaint is that he felt he was making some good pitches which got hit. I also think it is no secret that the Astros were playing terrible defense behind him in the first couple of innings. You can go look at the game thread for evidence of that (Carlos Lee walking to a ball, and allowing a slow pitcher to take 2d? and Carlos Lee misjudging a ball for a double…etc.) Because of Ortiz’s past issues with Cooper, he feels like something which wasn’t totally his fault will get him put back in the bullpen. (He didn’t say it; I’m guessing.) I am also guessing that Cooper could have avoided this whole situation if he had talked to Ortiz after he was removed and said something like, “we understand you had some bad luck, I felt that it was best for the team to remove you early, and don’t worry about it affecting your role on the team.”
As for Ortiz’s last game, I felt that he actually pitched well in that game. He definitely had a lot of bad luck in SF. JD and Brownie keep recalling how the Giants’ broadcasters were so impressed with Ortiz’s pitching in that game. Ortiz’s command and control was much better in the Giants’ game than this one.
Honestly I’m not a big Cooper fan. But Ortiz was sucking last night, he needs to look in the mirror. I think Coop reasonably felt that losing two games in one day would be extra deflating, so he had Ortiz on a short leash. I don’t think Tony La Russa have done anything differently.
Tony LaRussa has the respect of his clubhouse. So, I think any decision he makes would be accepted by the players. I disagree that other managers would have made that call. Yes, maybe if had been sent out again and perhaps continued a pattern. But that early in the game, most managers will remove the players when they are in trouble or starting to get in trouble (if there is a short leash). Ortiz wasn’t allowed to go back out to even try. The inconsistency of allowing Paulino to be pummeled for 9 runs and then taking a veteran out after 4 runs are scored, largely due to poor defense, is mind boggling.
I think those are two different situations. The break is coming up so using your bullpen a little more isn’t going to be a problem, the night before Wandy throws a complete game and the suspended game didn’t tax the pitching staff at all, and Roy is going tonight. Paulino since then has been demoted to the bullpen for his 9 run affair and Ortiz has been allowed to stay in the rotation. Paulino gave up a lot of those runs early essentially putting the game out of reach for the offense. Ortiz giving up only 4 runs probably doomed him because it’s still a relatively close game especially when the offense was chipping away at the lead early.
by Timothy De Block on Jul 10, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
well, when you are in the first game of a 4 game series, and you don’t know what will happen in the succeeding games (i.e., Murphy’s Law, or maybe that should be Cooper’s Law for our purposes), I do think you have to be concerned about not overusing your bullpen. By the time you get to game 3 or 4 maybe you can do what you want,
but really, I don’t think the actual decision in this game, in itself, is that big an issue. In the game thread, BWhite and I were both perplexed by the move, but I wrote it off to just another odd Cooper move…and there have been many. I think Cooper’s pattern of communications and morale problems dealing with the pitching staff is what sets me off.
I was at the game last night
I was sitting in the view deck right over home plate last night and Ortiz did not have it. He was consistently missing his spots. He was getting hit really hard by the worst team in the league. He just was not hitting where Pudge was set up
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