Trading Tejada?
So, A's fan here. Over at AN, one of the most frequent discussions as of late has been how to improve at SS. Some of the options have of course been the earlier effort to sign Furcal, potential efforts to sign Orlando Cabrera, or simply not playing anyone there and having Chavez and Ellis cheat over towards the hole. One name that popped up a couple times in these discussions has been Tejada's. My first thoughts were 'too old, too expensive, declining offensive and defensive skills', but it was looking up the latter that got me wondering. As Astro fans know, he was actually a bit above average with the glove, and while his hitting dipped, it still wasn't bad for a shortstop, (though it was kinda bad for $13M.)
Having done that, I then looked at the Astros moves for this offseason, what players they were signing, etc. I'd imagine Astro fans don't need to be reminded of the less-than-spectacular set of acquisitions they'd made, nor would I be blamed for assuming that the Astros are not expecting to contend this year.
With that in mind, I thought I'd ask Astro fans what they think the likelihood is that a Tejada trade might happen. Since you don't have a shortstop yourselves, (and there ain't much out there on the FA market, believe me,) presumably we would send Crosby back. He's not, y'know, good, but he's at least average defensively, and he saves you $8M versus Tejada. Also, he's not totally without upside. He's a right-handed pull hitter, so a power spike in Houston isn't entirely out of the question.
So, my questions are, is this a possibility? How much more in terms of prospects would it take?
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at this point
a player like Miggy, with the kind of contract he has, is probably worth either one high level prospect or a couple lower level guys, I’d think…
by HighLeveragePerformer on
Jan 12, 2009 5:21 PM CST
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Define "high level"
Are we talking an A-/B+ prospect on the Sickels scale or a B-/C+ guy who’s close to ML-ready?
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 6:13 PM CST
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the problem is
there don’t seem to be that many guys to compare tejada to, in terms of his contract, age, etc….it would probably be a little much to ask for a A-/B+ guy….a close to major league level guy, and a lower level prospect seem fairer to me
by HighLeveragePerformer on
Jan 12, 2009 6:59 PM CST
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contracts
i think the length remaining in crosby’s contract might be a factor because we would need somebody to play SS and our organization feel that our prospects tommy manzella and edwin maysonet are still a year or two away from being offensively ready for full time duty. so they’re stuck with possibly fighting for a utility role
by Subber10 on
Jan 12, 2009 5:41 PM CST
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Huh.
I’m still trying to process the concept of Crosby’s contract not being long enough. You could probably extend him for the ML minimum and some pizza coupons.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 6:13 PM CST
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i meant if crosby only has 1 or 2 years left then go ahead and take him cause he can tie us over til our own prospects are ready to be every day players, i don’t want crosby any longer than that
by Subber10 on
Jan 12, 2009 7:03 PM CST
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Crosby currently has a 1-year deal
for $5.25M.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 8:23 PM CST
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I think it would be a good move
But I think we’d probably look more towards pitching prospects than we would to a replacement.
We have two near ready prospects in Maysonet and Manzella (bat-less, but good enough glove in Manzella’s case), plus Sutton wouldn’t be the worst I SS I’d imagine and he looks ready for some MLB action.
However, I’m not Ed Wade and I can almost guarantee that we won’t be trading Tejada, which is somewhat unfortunate. The fans like him, the club house likes him, and our front office believes, and my own research into finds in support, that Tejada will be more effective with his bat if he’s given more off-days. Plus, Drayton isn’t the kinda guy to eat contract to get better prospects, which would be the only benefit of trading Tejada if we did it. Otherwise, we can just wait to collect our Type A compensation pick and scrape buy in our current franchise model of just being good enough to fill the seats without ever contemplating rebuilding.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Jan 12, 2009 6:06 PM CST
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I would gauge the odds of trading Tejada are low.
I think the Astros would do it if the buying team would pay his contract and give up a couple of useful young players. However, I don’t think Tejada’s contract will attract many takers in this market. It’s not that Tejada doesn’t have value. His defense, in my estimation, was excellent last year. His RZR was the highest among NL shortstops, and he surprised me in the field. The guy has a great arm. His offense tailed off pretty significantly but I think there is a better than 50-50 chance he posts a .780-.790 OPS in the upcoming year. The problem is that his salary is $13 million. Because Wade is still tryng to put together a contending club, I don’t think he is willing to just engage in a salary dump.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 6:07 PM CST
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We have had Tejdad to A's discussions before
I would say that most Astro fans would be fine with a Tejada trade, just we know we aren’t going to get much back. Now if Wade decided to trade Miggy back to the A’s and offered to pick up a small portion of his salary that would would be more interesting as we could get more back.
In your opinion Nate, what would the A’s be willing to offer for a $13 mil Tejada and a $8 Mil Tejada? Also, let’s just say Crosby can’t be part of the deal.
by baggs on
Jan 12, 2009 7:07 PM CST
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If we're eating the whole salary...
and not ditching Crosby, I can’t imagine that there’d be much of value in what we’d send back. Tejada’s likely to be about a 1-2 win upgrade over Crosby, and $13M is an expensive premium for that. I’d expect any players who return to be either marginally useful borderline players who couldn’t fit on the 25 man like Matt Murton or possibly Rajai Davis or a superfluous pitcher, or low-A guys who are a few years away that the A’s don’t expect to turn into much.
If it’s for $8M, well first I’d say that Houston might as well just take Crosby. If they’re going to eat $5M, they might as well spend another quarter million and get a guy who, if nothing else, is a decent spare part. In any case, if Oakland getting that 1-2 win upgrade for $8M, that would still be a premium, but not out of line with what’s out there on the FA market. (I’d certainly rather have Miggy for that price than Cabrera, who’ll likely want about the same.) I think we might put in a real pitching prospect in exchange. Not Anderson or Cahill, certainly, but a Simmons or a Mazzaro or an Outman might not be out of line.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 8:39 PM CST
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It's become pretty gospel around here that...
…Tejada is pretty decent for a shortstop, but definitely not worth $13 million.
But now I’m starting to question how accurate this statement is. According to fangraphs.com, the market rate for one win above a replacement player (WAR) in 2008 was $4.5 million. So to be worth $13 mill, Tejada would have to be worth roughly 2.9 WAR.
Fangraphs puts him at 2.6 WAR, which would translate to a value of $11.7 million, which would mean we overpaid, but not by much (in baseball salary terms).
Our recent community projection project had him at 3 WAR, a value of $13.5 million.
So maybe his performance is in line with his salary. Of course, $13 mil is a lot of money, especially in a down economy, so this calculation could change in the future (perhaps just in time for us to re-sign him).
by AstroAndy on
Jan 12, 2009 8:52 PM CST
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A lot of that 2.6 WAR
is due to his defensive performance, but take a look at his defense over the past few years in runs above average:
2004: 8.4
2005: -8.0
2006: -0.6
2007: -6.5
2008: 5.3
This kind of fluctuation is very common with fielding metrics which tend to be a lot less developed than hitting stats. Was he really a +1 win defender one year, a -1 win defender the next year and an average defender the year after that? Probably not. Most likely he was the same defender, but a few more ground balls bounced the right way one year while a few more line drives went over his head the next. Take the aggregate instead, which shows that over 5 years, he’s been 1.4 runs below average, (or 0.3 below average per year.) Basically, he’s been an average defender over that time.
Looking at hitting projections, CHONE has Tejada at .285/.337/.441 in Houston, (vs .281/.332/.426 in a neutral park.) which is about 1.5 WAR. Factor in -0.3 for the defense and +.75 for him being a shortstop and I think it’s reasonable to expect a 2-win performance from him.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 9:09 PM CST
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I don't think I buy your view of defensive metrics.
I don’t think they are inherently less reliable than hitting stats. No, I don’t think he was the same defender in 08 as 07. I don’t why the difference is large. Perhaps it has something to do with injuries (he was injured in 07). In this case, i saw most of Tejada’s games in 08, and what I saw was consistent with the metrics showing him to be substantially above average in 08. Tejada’s defense in 07 was so bad that the Orioles were considering a move to 3d base. Some scouts felt that his defense would improve significantly if he was traded because his attitude had deteriorated in Baltimore. That is as good a theory as any.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 9:59 PM CST
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How do you explain 2005?
He wasn’t hurt and he hit .304/.349/.515, which is comparable to the year he won the MVP for (though, unless you buy the argument that the MVP has to come from a winning team, A-Rod got hosed that year,) but somehow he was a sub-Jeter fielder?
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 10:25 PM CST
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I don't have an explanation.
I didn’t watch him then, and I can’t say. I do believe that players can have good and bad defensive years, just like they have good and bad offensive years.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 10:27 PM CST
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The point is, they aren't inherently that good or bad.
Adrian Beltre has a career line of .271/.327/.459. Yes he had a year where he was .334/.388/.629, and yes he had a year where he was .255/.303/.413. He’s not really a .413 slugging hitter, but he’s certainly not really a .629 slugging hitter either. Tejada may have had a good defensive year, but it’s one of only two out of the last seven where his UZR was positive. I think assumptions about what sort of player he’ll be going forward work better when they’re based on an aggregate, especially when we’re talking defense.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 10:36 PM CST
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I agree that it's hard to predict Tejada going forward.
My only point is that he had did in fact perform that well in 08…it’s not random fluctuation. Tejada had a RZR of .879 in 08, which was by far the highest of his career, in fact, 50 points higher than his previous best year in 04. Perhaps it’s interesting that his two best defensive seasons occurred in the first year after he was traded. If I knew what made him perform better, though, I would be more confident in making predictions. He has shown in 08 that he has the capability of performing at a high level on defense; whether he will perform to his capability, I don’t know. Having said that, I don’t think it is unreasonable to look at long term averages on defense. But I also don’t think it is unreasonable to give greater weight to the most recent season.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 10:56 PM CST
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Tejada had a RZR of .879 in 08, which was by far the highest of his career.
Emphasis added. I’m not outright denying the possibility that at age 34 he was a significantly better defender than he had been previously, but it doesn’t seem like the most probably scenario.
Perhaps it’s interesting that his two best defensive seasons occurred in the first year after he was traded. If I knew what made him perform better, though, I would be more confident in making predictions.
I think you’re kinda fishing here. I know Miggy’s an emotional player, but if it’s emotion that turns up his defense a notch, why was that defense so bad his last two years in Oakland when he was in playoff hunts?
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 11:02 PM CST
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Another A's fan here, lured by Nate's (and my) Tejada fetish
I think Nate is pretty spot on with his value assessment. If the A’s ate all of Tejada and couldn’t ditch Crosby they would offer very little value, probably only 1-2 players we didn’t perceive to be worth anything. For $8 million, you definitely get a legit (B-/C+) prospect.
I’m curious, last year I watched a lot of Tejada, I remember his amazing start and then he really tanked. I was wondering if any Astros fans had an explanation for this sudden drastic collapse?
I seriously doubt he will OPS near .800 next year, as much as I hope he does.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
by ChadGod on
Jan 12, 2009 9:58 PM CST
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Don't know what happened to his offense.
In June thru July, he couldn’t buy a hit. That was probably a low point for his offensive season. But he wasn’t that great in the later months either. He is a contact hitter who swings at everything. If anything, his early splurge seemed to encourage his swing happy ways. His HRs obviously were down. His plate discipline was never great, but I am guessing it got worse during the bad periods. FWIW, according to Bill James on line, Tejada OPS’d nearly .900 in clutch situations. I think Tejada is at an age where he is hard to predict. There is some risk of a crash. But my guess is that he is at the late stage of his career where good hitters are prone to show up-and-down year to year performance. A bad OPS can be followed by a good OPS. He may still have one season left in him which takes him back to mid-.800 OPS. Most of the projections indicate a mid- to high- .700’s OPS for next year.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 10:11 PM CST
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I'd be willing to bet...
…that his decline in the middle of last season came from a combination of (a) age (b) not getting enough rest, and © opposing pitchers really challenging him with the fastball. I hate citing fangraphs every other post, but they have an article showing that the percentage of fastballs he’s seen over the last four years has been steadily rising. It’s to the point where last season, two out of three pitches he saw were fastballs, the ninth highest FB percentage in the majors.
by AstroAndy on
Jan 12, 2009 10:39 PM CST
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interesting point about the FB%.
Tejada swung at a greater percent of pitches (53) in 08 than previous years. He generally took 50 or more of his pitches in 05 thru 07. However, he swung and missed less in 08 than most years, which doesn’t seem consisent with being beat by the fastball. FWIW, he seems to be swinging at a higher percent of balls low outside the strike zone. What that means, if anything, I’m not sure.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 11:19 PM CST
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Those are some interesting facts
Because of them, I looked a little harder at his stats, trying to find a pattern. Here are some things I found.
The percentage of flyballs that went for homeruns for the last 3 years:
2006 – 15.5%
2007 – 12.7%
2008 – 8.0%
His three-year Isolated Power (ISO) (essentially a measure of how often he hits for better than a single)
2006 – .168
2007 – .146
2008 – .131
But his contact percentage has gone up the last three years:
2006 – 84.4%
2007 – 85.9%
2008 – 86.5%
And you say he’s swinging more at balls low outside the strike zone.
One “story” that would be consistent with these facts would be that he’s still good at putting the bat on the ball, even when they’re outside the strike zone, but he’s become less selective about the pitches he’s hitting. It may be that he hits more low-outside-the-zone balls, but he can’t drive them nearly as well as he can drive something squarely in his wheelhouse.
by AstroAndy on
Jan 13, 2009 11:11 PM CST
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very interesting research
thanks.
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by ChadGod on
Jan 15, 2009 1:04 AM CST
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Tejada was always a bit prone to chasing low balls that were over the plate
To his credit, he used to golf a lot of them for doubles.
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by ChadGod on
Jan 15, 2009 1:05 AM CST
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I can't see Wade considering a Tejada trade...
unless he clears enough net money from the payroll to sign a good free agent pitcher. ..because I think that would be his motivation. Wade is hot for Wolf, and he may cost $8 or $9 million, and I think he would view a Tejada trade as a means of accomplishing that. I just don’t see how he would make it work. The $5 million price tag for Crosby, for example, would pretty much require that the A’s pay the full Tejada salary in order to clear enough payroll. If Crosby isn’t included, then Wade has to figure in the cost of acquiring a shortstop to replace Tejada. And, frankly, I would probably rather have Tejada than Wolf, if the only added player is Crosby.
by clack on
Jan 12, 2009 10:21 PM CST
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If Houston took Crosby
I think Oakland would have no problem picking up Tejada’s salary.
by Nate on
Jan 12, 2009 10:26 PM CST
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