The Astros Are Flirting With Dangerous Territory
As Houston franchise fans, we should be familiar with our mediocrity putting our teams in awkward positions in which losing games puts the team in question in better position for future drafts. The 2008 Astros find themselves exactly in this position. While not on par with the famed Bush Bowl, a top half finish in the overall MLB standings would make the offseason acquisition of a "impact" player, presumably a starting pitcher, dangerous for rebuilding the farm system. What follows is an explication of the free agent compensation system and why the Astros find themselves in a pickle.

So what follows is me ripping off Tim Dierkes of MLBTradeRumors, who ripped off Keith Law, which makes me not feel too bad.
Here's how it works. There are two types of Free Agents of importance, Type A and Type B. There are a third category I'll call everyone else, but they don't matter...so we won't discuss them anymore. The categories are computed by Elias, using a two year analysis of specific stats that vary by position. Type A Free Agents rank in the top 30% of their position. If the team they played for in the year leading up to free agency offers them arbitration, but the player declines, then that team is entitled to the team who signed the Type A Free Agent's first round draft pick. This is an if and only if statement, though. Because the team signs the Type Free Agent A only loses their first round draft pick, if and only if, their first round pick isn't protected. If the pick isn't protected, the Type A Free Agent's new team only loses a second round draft pick and the old team is awarded a supplemental pick at the end of the first round.
How does a pick become protected? Well, this is the important thing for the Astros. The first 15 picks are protected and the picks are awarded in reverse order on the strength of record. Essentially you have to finish in the bottom half of MLB in order to have your pick protected.
Type B Free Agents are players deemed to be in between top 30%-50% of their position by Elias. Again, for the team losing the Type B Free Agent to get any compensation, they have to offer the free agent arbitration and have it rejected. If this happens, then the team lost the Type B Free Agent gets a supplemental pick between the first and second round.
The Astros are in this gray area in middle of the MLB standings. They're tied for 18th with Baltimore at 54-59. However the Blue Jays, the median team, are 3.5 games up on us at 58-56, with the Dodgers and Detroit in the middle. While it would be fun to watch us put together a solid stretch of games --have our line-up on the same page, and our starters pitch well in tandem -- it could also be dangerous.
I can smell a Ben Sheets signing growing stronger by the day and while I'll save my qualms with that signing for another day, we can't afford to lose our 1st round pick in next years draft. Chasing the hope of being a contender to sell more tickets shouldn't interfere with the monumental task of rebuilding our farm. If we want to be a legitimate contender again someday, we have to understand that spending our way out if it isn't the way to go about it. Look at the MLB leader boards, the common denominator is a thriving farm system that has given teams a core nucleus of young players to fortify with veterans where needed. Further, the teams that pulled of deadline deals that actually made their teams better for the rest of the season had sought after prospects to leverage away stars. I don't care if Drayton wants to spend $150 million a year to field a contender, so long as it doesn't cost us the positive momentum we've built this year in terms of rebuilding the farm.
While we don't have a "Bush Bowl" on our hands, we do have a situation where an 11-4 shellacking of our boys isn't the worst thing that could happen to us either.
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If we lose our 1st round pick
and sign Ben Sheets to a 5 year contract… then I say who gives a shit about the 1st round pick. If this was basketball or football where a 1st round pick is almost a lock to be an impact(or at least a contributor) player on your team, then that would be a different story… but in baseball… 1st round picks are still very much a crap shoot as to whether or not they turn out to be good major league talent.
Now I agree that unless we are actually going to come back and get in this playoff race(which isn’t likely), then losing games and putting us in the bottom half of the MLB standings isn’t a bad thing for the club… but we shouldn’t just mail it in now… you still have to be competitive and do whatever you can to win games.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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While 5 years of Ben Sheet's would be nice -- if healthy
I’ll point you first to this study from BPro about the draft: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4026 For those with out a subscription (I know that Stros Bros does though), essentially, your best bet in the crap should in the draft is the first round, specifically the first ten picks in the first round. They reach the majors 90% of the time, they provide an average of 45 wins above replacement over a 15 year window. After those first few picks though, you get into the real crap shoot numbers. So while you can say you don’t give a shit about a first round draft pick and you’d rather have this team grind out a 82-80 season so you can feel like this season wasn’t for not, but in my opinion, that’s a pretty illogical stance to take—given what the numbers tell us.
Like Evan said below me, we can spend $140-150 million a year and try to keep a group of expensive free agents peforming and eschew first and second round draft picks like they’re the plague, or we can live in reality. Suck up a few years of blows to our egos that would be the cost of sort-sighted and often inept decisions made both leading up to and in the wake of our ‘04 and ‘05 glory. With that mindset, we can spend what it takes to sign the best available talent (not selling out on your first pick for Jason Castro) and the provide the kinds of instruction and coaching that will propel them to the majors—not just throw together former players fresh off retirement who wanted to try they’re hand at managing a low A club (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/beyond-moneyball-player-development/).
More importantly, I don’t think this team is a one FA agent pitcher or a few FA pitcher’s away from glory, because we can’t afford/are fooling ourselves to think that we can sign everything we need to sign in order to thrive next season. If we had a core nucleus of successful players that only need a patch then it’d be worth throwing caution to the wind to get a Sheets caliber player. We’re not that good of a team though and we can’t buy everything. Patience is a virtue for a reason. I mean, just look at Tampa Bay that team is first round draft picks.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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I never said I'd rather us grind out an 82 win season than get a good draft pick
I said I’d rather have Ben Sheets for 5 years, than a 1st round draft pick… big difference
If we can get Sheets, then I’ll sacrifice 1, 1st round draft choice to get him. He brings stability to a rotation that desperately needs it and could do so for years while the farm system develops… I know Sheets has a history of being injured, but none of his injuries point towards arm problems… they’ve almost all been fluky injuries, so there’s no reason to think he’s going to get injured any more than any other player would.
Concerning Tampa Bay… yes, they are a good team now… and it only took them what.. 10 years to become a good team? Sorry, I’m not going to sacrifice 10 years of my team to finally be a good team again.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 2:51 PM CDT
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Do you think Sheets puts us at 87-90 wins?
Because if you don’t, then there’s no reason to sign him or toss away a first round pick. You don’t need a stable rotation on a .500 team +/- 2 wins. That’s just assinine thing that Drayton and Ed will spew about to put butts in the seats next year because they can’t man up and rebuild.
You said you’d rather not have the Astros give up, but instead grind forward. That was what I was referencing because that’s about all I see us doing if everything broke our way.
Sheet’s injured just about every part of his kinematic chain, he’s stayed healthy this year, but what will it be like next year when after he’s thrown a full season? Especially with our inept management. If Sheets strains something and we run him out there like we do Roy because we think we need to win now versus keep him healthy, Sheets will start the whole process over again. Do you trust this team to not screw that up?
Tampa was totally mismanaged for the first five years of their existence. Once that got a savvy management group pulling the strings, they turned their franchise around in less than 5 years. Worst to first.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 3:06 PM CDT
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If you are saying that the team should start losing on purpose
then you’re out of your f&*@ing mind and are a scourge to fandom.
Sheets makes this team better… A stable rotation doesn’t make this team a .500 win team; a stable rotation makes this team fighting for the playoffs. So if Ben Sheets can add stability to the rotation, then yes I want him.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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Really, the scourge?
Being willing to take an objective view of the situation and see what’s best for the health of my team makes me a scourge? Let’s not even get hung up on whether we’ll be able to sign been Sheets, because he’ll be sought after FA #2 this off-season. Let’s focus on what matters, the health of the franchise, which equates with the ability for the big league team to be good. If we toss away a couple of meaningless games in 2008 to make sure we can draft young talent AND sign Ben Sheets at the same time, I think that’s keeping the best interest of everyone in mind—which is what I wrote about.
Long-term health = scourge
Short-term inanity = not scrouge.
I’ll keep that in mind.
We have to make up 9 games on the Cards/Brewers one of who could easily play .600, so thats 27-28 wins out of 45 games. Can we play 36 win games out of 45?
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 3:56 PM CDT
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Why would you root for a team
that loses on purpose?
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 3:58 PM CDT
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Losing on purpose destroys the integrity of the game.
I have to agree with you there, Stros Bro. I think it also takes away from the implicit compact with the fans, that is, the team will do it best to win games. If the team started making moves (e.g., not playing the best players, etc.) for the purpose of reducing its W/L record and getting a better draft position (and it could be proven), then I think MLB should severely sanction the team with fines and/or loss of draft choices. As a practical matter, it is very difficult for teams to persuade managers and front office people to do that, because they are competitive by nature.
by clack on
Aug 7, 2008 5:07 PM CDT
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When did I say lose on purpose?
I just said I’m not going to pull for a stretch drive that’s nothing more than a cock-tease, but I’m not even confident that is going to happen. I don’t think I ever said lets throw the season.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 7:58 PM CDT
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This pretty much summed it up
Being willing to take an objective view of the situation and see what’s best for the health of my team makes me a scourge?
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 8:46 PM CDT
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Summed what up?
Are you saying that because I’ve got the ability to look long term that I’m a scourge to fandom. That’s funny because first I don’t remember they’re being rules on how to feel about your team and secondly I think that takes a lot more heart than the attitudes you are advocating. I’m saying that I love this team to the point that I’m willing to support it performing below average for a few years if it means the ability for it to have prolonged future success.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 9:25 PM CDT
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i think you're a scourge
your posts make my head hurt
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on
Aug 7, 2008 10:01 PM CDT
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I'm sorry
Like all muscles, brain’s require regular exercise. Engaging in any activity with out being fully prepared is just a recipe for injury.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 10:11 PM CDT
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yeah,
then your brain must be injured a lot. I mean you keep writing and all I want is for you to stop. Writing about stuff that no one cares about is a waste. I mean I wish you would make a post about the weather, then it might be a little enjoyable. I can’t even laugh at you. It just makes me sad. I have tried reading your posts but there just isn’t anything that makes me want to continue. yawn I mean do you actually read what you write? You really are a scourge. Can you juggle? Balance a ball on your nose? No? Damn. How bout sing a song? No? What can you do? Because you are definitly not entertaining.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on
Aug 7, 2008 10:32 PM CDT
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Well I can juggle
I didn’t realize that writing for an Astros blog made me an entertainer. I thought it made me a slightly nerdy journalist wannabe. I think I play that part well. Perhaps you should raise your expectations of what you should get from a blog.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 10:34 PM CDT
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slightly nerdy?
bah. My expectations of a blog are to entertain. Obviously you are in the wrong place. You obviously don’t know what the crawfishboxes are all about. Entertain and inform. Where have you been for the last few years?
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on
Aug 7, 2008 10:37 PM CDT
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Entertain will come
The last few years have seen me complete three years of college.
So I’ve learned lots of stuff. I’ve learned lots of stuff about baseball. I don’t think I’m in the wrong place because is a baseball blog. It happens to be a baseball blog about a baseball team that is in dire need of people thinking differently about the game of baseball.
To that end, I’ve been to lay a frame work of how I like to think differently about this organization. I think that’s informative.
I’ve written some pretty sarcastic, some might witty posts on my former blog. I even told here about my striptease during Game 4 of the NLDS. However, I have duty to inform. Clearly, in this instance, I’ve got my work cut out for me.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 10:47 PM CDT
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Hmmmm
Yes, first round picks in baseball are far from sure things. However, it is the act of giving them away like they’re nothing/failing to sign players drafted in the early rounds/overpaying free agents, and then losing first round picks, that has put this team’s farm system in the position they’re in. Here’s my thought: either Drayton spends $140 mil on a payroll every season until he sells the team, or the Astros need to continue attempting to accumulate early round draft picks. Sure, 90% of these guys drafted won’t reach the majors, but the 10% that will is a much higher percentage than we have right now.
by HighLeveragePerformer on
Aug 7, 2008 1:27 PM CDT
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don't forget
the Astros knack for not signing their draft picks.. they did better this year but I think it is due to the fact that they made bad choices that they knew they could sign instead of going after the best talent and then having to do work to sign them
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on
Aug 7, 2008 10:05 PM CDT
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Dude, since reading an thinking obviously aren't your thing
I’ll save you the effort:
I said we had to sign the best available talent and give them the resources they needed. Making your comment moot.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 10:10 PM CDT
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Dude (wow, people still say that?)
My response was in regards to “HighLeveragePerformer” (whatever that means) so maybe you should mind your own damn business. I can’t keep up with your rambling so if I miss a point you made then maybe in the future you should GET TO THE DAMN POINT! and save us the rest of your madness…
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on
Aug 7, 2008 10:35 PM CDT
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I don't think it's sound logic
to say that as long as we get high round picks, we’re going to turn into the Rays. the Royals and Pirates have also sucked for a really long time and reeled in a lot of top draft picks. guess what, they still suck.
i also don’t think we’re even on the brink of becoming the Royals or Pirates. Are you in the Roy is never going to be good again camp? i’m not. look at Peavy in 2006. even great pitchers have bad years. and he’s far from a sure thing, but we’ve got Paulino, who hopefully will be healthy next year. if it turns out that the 08 Astros are a 82-80 club, i don’t think it’s a monumental leap to think that a Sheets and maybe a small piece here or there could bring them to an 87-92 win team.
if we had some veterans in the last year of their contract that we could have sold off as rent-a-players or other obvious deadline fodder, i would have been all about trying to cash in for some prospects, but to me, there just weren’t many moves that would have made sense for next year. we’ve got a nucleus of quality talent (Roy, Lance, Carlos) that will be around for a few more years. why not try to continue to build a team to win with that nucleus?
lastly, I’m with Stros Bro. i’m just never going to root for the Astros to lose. that’s just not a part of what it means to me to be a fan and to enjoy watching baseball.
by littlevisigoth on
Aug 7, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
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Peavy was younger than Roy Oswalt is.
I don’t think Roy is doomed, but I don’t think we’re going to see ‘05 Roy anymore either.
The nucleus your speaking of is three players out of the 8 position players and 4 other starters you need. That’s a lot of ground to cover this off-season.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 8:01 PM CDT
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Nucleus
Berkman, Tejada, Lee, Pence, Matsui… You have left a catcher(very few if any are good offensive players) and 2 more players… Wigginton is serviceable… so we’re really just looking at 1 real hole in the lineup that needs to be filled and that is CF. An upgrade at 3rd would be nice… but not a must have to make this team good.
Roy and Wandy are fine in the rotation.. Fill in Sheets and you have 3 of the 5… I’m not putting my money on Moehler… but few teams have solid 1-5 so if we can keep Moehler as a serviceable 4th or 5th starter and then I guess we’ll have to settle for Backe as the #5(hey, he’s good in the post season) and our rotation is pretty strong.
The holes aren’t as big as you think….
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 8:52 PM CDT
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The Royals and Pirates
Have never been willing to pay for best available talent. Instead they’ve just tried to stick to the slot price and it hasn’t worked well. This year saw the Pirates spend in big ways and now they’re primed for 2010. The Royals…they’re the Royals.
I didn’t say that we just needed to get picks, I said we needed to sign the best talent and give them everything they needed to develop. Something those two organizations haven’t done.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 8:43 PM CDT
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It will be interesting to see what happens.
However, I don’t know that it is a dilemma. If the Astros don’t get first round protection, it means that their record will be reasonably decent (maybe .500—-and yes, I will be happy with a .500 record). And in that case, if Drayton is willing to sign impact free agents (Type A), it’s a good thing for fans, because the team is close enough to contention that free agent signing may be enough to put them in the hunt. If the scenario arises that they get to keep their 1st round pick, that’s good too. So, if you are a glass half-full kind of guy, it’s win-win either way.
One can argue that, if you are going to lose your 1st round pick anyway, then you think about signing multiple Type A free agents. Obviously, it depends on who is available and how much they can help the team; but you don’t lose any draft choices for any free agent signings after your first Type A signing.
Alternative strategies might include looking at Type B free agent pitchers (depending on who is available) since there is no loss of draft choices for Type B signings. If you know you are going to lose your 1st round pick (by signing Sheets, for instance), then I think you try to maximize your supplemental first round picks by offering arbitration to as many of your Type B free agents as possible. We don’t know who will be Type B free agents, but it is possible that Byrdak, Wolf, Loretta, and Erstad could become Type B free agents. (I’m assuming that Blum’s and Brocail’s options preclude arbitration.) Sure, you take a risk that they will accept arbitration, but I think the Astros need to be like those teams which almost always take the arbitration risk (like the Padres, A’s, and Brewers)—besides it’s not a terrible thing if any of those four players return.
Needless to say, the Astros have to avoid signing Type A FAs before the deadline for offering arbitration…a mistake made by Pupura in 2007. It probably didn’t hurt them on Lee (the Rangers would have offered him arbitration because everyone knew he would turn it down), but it could have cost them a draft choice for Woody Williams.
by clack on
Aug 7, 2008 5:24 PM CDT
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Garland is the only Type B of worth that comes to mind
Let’s keep in mind though we can’t spend a ton of money every where this off-season. There is NO SHORT TERM FIX for this team. All I’m saying is we can try and achieve mediocrity or we can try and retool for greatness.
On a separate note, I’m glad that the people who were indirectly accusing me of questioning people’s fandom yesterday are crucifying me because I’m trying to think long term and not buy Drayton McLane’s endless stream of BS. I think fanhood has many forms, you have your cup of tea, I’ll have mine.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 8:04 PM CDT
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Maybe I'm out of line here--
-I’m just glancing through these posts at 5 a.m.-but when I spoke of sabermetricians acting like us non-analytical types weren’t true fans, I didn’t mean you. You just got here, so to speak. And I am enjoying learning more about the concepts, so thanks for the series of posts.
75% of the Earth's surface is covered by water. . . the other 25% by Michael Bourn
by Danyah on
Aug 8, 2008 5:18 AM CDT
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Ok, here's my calm and collected thought
There is no way we will make the play offs this year we need to win 36 games out of 45.
There is however, a chance that we could add a marquee starting pitcher, see Roy Oswalt return to form, have Felipe Paulino pitch as well as many hoped he would this year. Maybe we could have Brandon Backe find some semblance of control and become an effective pitcher again. Wandy could find consistency home and away and learn how to control his poise. Miguel Tejada might not have a horrendous mid-season slump, Carlos Lee could play evened keeled and perhaps drop about 25-30 LBS so he can cover LF away from the short porch at MMP. Lance could eschew the red-hot streak for balanced play too. Pence could employ the lesson’s he’s learned to handle big-league pitching and play up to the level we all hoped he would. Michael Bourn could be a serviceable CF he returns to his incredible walk rates in the minors, making him a true lead off threat. JR Towles could remember what his swings used to be like. Kaz could play as well as he had, although it’d be nice if displayed that defensive prowess we’ve all heard so much about. Hell we could just put people on base and we’d be a lot better off than this year. I’m not starting on the bull pen. Further, we could then fire Cecil Cooper who has mismanaged our running game, our batting order, and our bull usage to maddening proportions.
All that could happen, I’d love for it to happen, I really would. There was no happier fan around coming into this season, I really thought we had what we needed to compete. However, it’s clear that there are just TOO many IF’s out there. Too many pages to synchronize. But it’s about hope and faith and those exist. Like I said, I’d applaud Drayton for signing a Sheet’s type character to come here and see what we can accomplish before it’s too late. But there’s not a lot of wiggle room in payroll to play that game more than once. That statement was conditional on us not forsaking rebuilding from the ground up. This franchise has lost it’s foundation. It’s heartbreaking.
Just a few years ago, we were one of the best run franchises in the business. We lost it. We got to cautious, we got to bold. We got hung up on big names for too long. It’s been what it’s been. There is a lot of work to be done to fix it or we’re on our way not becoming the Royals or the Pirates, but the Rangers. I don’ t think it makes me less of a fan of this organization to have the calm rationality to say that I’d rather forsake present enjoyment for future returns. I didn’t say, “Oh lets just bring up the Legends and have the field the 25 man roster.” I said, it won’t kill us to get shellacked 11-4 in route to a bottom half finish. It sends a message to the fans that all is not well and it sends a message to the thick skulls in our front office that there is a lot leaks springing on this ship. That situation would allow us to keep our first round pick, the only pick that has a strong probability of providing future performance from the draft, AND placate our fringe shot at competition in 2009. The situation I’m rooting for is the best of both worlds for both the immediate future and the long term picture.
Instead of even being willing to entertain that I’m trying balance both short term benefits and long term health, I was told that I wasn’t a true fan. Then I quickly became the scourge of fandom. In my mind’s eye it’s not fandom that says “let’s batton down the hatches full speed ahead, screw the future,” that’s mindless faith—the most dangerous thing in the world. But I understand the impulse so I’m glad that there are people who will be happy with that. I won’t. A .500 season is meaningless. The point of playing a game is to be the best. .500 is average, it won’t get us to the playoffs. It won’t bring home any World Series. It will give us a few years of, “if we just sign this, we’ll be solid.” While we continue the floor continues to rot out from under us. I guess thinking we could be a good team for 82 games before reality sets in would have it’s perks. But don’t you think the pill would just get harder to swallow if you new that we had gone all in once again and now we were totally bankrupt?
Crucify me if you want to. I’ll play the villain, but I’m not. I’m taking a cool, objective view of the situation. I presented the BEST possible outcome. What you guys are advocating and rooting for, will lead us nowhere, but further ruin and despair. If that’s being a true fan, I want none of that. In the end, I guess I’m just not the true fan, whatever that means.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 8:37 PM CDT
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........ ...... ....
Nobody said you weren’t a true fan… I said that if you think the Astros should lose on purpose, then you’re a bad fan.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on
Aug 7, 2008 8:58 PM CDT
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Actually you did
You then tried to use a quote of mine to bolster your point. Which is it?
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 9:27 PM CDT
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Almost every team has "IFs"....
The Yankees have a lot of ifs….maybe the Red Sox have fewer ‘ifs”....all young teams have a ton of ifs; older teams have a lot of ifs for a different reason. but it’s part of baseball, and quite frankly it’s what makes baseball pennant chases fun. If we could guarantee how players will perform, it would be boring. IMO, the key question marks for Astros’ position players continue to be Bourn and Towles. Because they are young players, we don’t know if this season was a harbinger for their future careers or not. If the Astros aren’t willing to take the chance that these two guys will grow into acceptable starters next year, then they face acquiring players for two fairly difficult to fill positions. The money needs to be spent on the pitching. If the Astros could find a relatively cheap RH center fielder to platoon with Bourn, I would try that. My guess is that Towles will eventually become a decent ML hitter; whether it happens next year or the year after, who knows?
by clack on
Aug 7, 2008 10:49 PM CDT
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Hmmm....
What you guys are advocating and rooting for, will lead us nowhere, but further ruin and despair.
That is not what I call a “cool, objective” evaluation. People can have different opinions about how to get from point X to point Y. There is no way to prove or verify that one approach will lead to ruin and despair and the other will lead to a cornucopia of pennants. My guess is that multiple different paths could lead to a pennant contender if they are executed well and have some good luck. And that none of them would lead to pennant contention, if they are executed poorly and face a lot of bad luck.
by clack on
Aug 7, 2008 10:59 PM CDT
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Touche, thanks for calling me on that.
And more importantly, thanks for engaging in what I was saying.
It wasn’t cool and objective. My first thoughts were, though.
I shouldn’t have tried to take the moral high ground. However, I believe, and there are lots of numbers and studies that bolster the idea, that the most cost effective way to build a team is to have a foundation in youth. Look at what the Brewers and Cubs accomplished, they needed a veteran to fill scarce positions, so they used the strength of their farm systems to do it. Both teams acquired marquee starting pitchers because they had the disposable prospects. The Astros settled for Randy Wolf.
Yes, every team has if’s. Young talented teams have questions of how high will the go. Veteran teams have questions of, can they do that ever again? You need to have a mix for sure. If we go sign a lot of players next year and lose out on high draft picks, we have really hampered the rebuilding process of this club. I was in the camp of sell every piece that’s not bolted in place before the deadline and I won’t apologize for that. I think we’ve put to much stock into the ghost of 2005 and we’ve been trying to ride that wave for too long. We need a real plan for this organization. One that doesn’t involve looking back at the end of every year and saying “Well this area of our club was just horrendous, let’s just sign a big contract guy and that one player will bring enough upside to sweep away the other deficiencies across the board.” We’ve been ignoring the forest through the trees for too long. We have no legitimate basis for longterm success. We have, at best, next year to make one last stand and see what happens. After that, we’re a team that has hand-cuffed itself for many years to come. I just want us to mitigate those risks.
This little exchange has been real dialogue and productive at that. Thank you.
I haven’t been the pillar of objectivity in my defense of these thoughts, that’s true. However, I ask for forgiveness as I have just wrapped up a week long family vacation to visit my grand parents and driven halfway across the country to come home. I didn’t channel my frustrations, however I think we’ve all been here.
I just want one thing to be known: I love the Astros and I love this game. I think we all do.
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by DyingQuail on
Aug 7, 2008 11:30 PM CDT
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no need to apologize...just don't take things too seriously. :)
I agree with several of the points you make. The Astros have some bad legacy decisions which will constrain them in the future. I doubt that anyone here will argue that re-stocking the farm system isn’t important. But I’ll go back to my point about execution. The Astros’ situation leaves them very little margin for error in executing their strategies, whether at farm system or major league level. Based upon some of the trades/acquisitions which have been made so far by Wade, I am more concerned about the team’s ability to evaluate / project / acquire players than I am the specific course they take. I’ll leave it at that for the moment, and hopefully Wade will prove me wrong on that statement.
by clack on
Aug 8, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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