Buyers or Sellers?
The 08 MLB trade deadline is July 31st. The Astros currently sit in last place in the National League Central division with a 40-47 record and are 12 games behind the 1st place Chicago Cubs. The Astros payroll is 14th in all of baseball at $88,930,415 and we have one of the worst minor league systems... so that brings me to the question. What should the Astros do before the 2008 trade deadline? Should we have a fire sale and try to get rid of the contracts of Carlos Lee, Roy Oswalt, Lance Berkman and Miguel Tejada(assuming the players wave their no trade clauses where applicable)? Should the Astros just go ahead and concede this season as a failure and look towards rebuilding through trades and look to try and be a good team in a year or two(at the earliest)? Or do you think we are close enough to being a good team that we should try and make a trade or 2 to better our team now and try to make a run for at least the Wild Card this season?
In my opinion... a fire sale is not the way to go. I'm not completely under the same thought as Drayton, that the Astros should never rebuild, they should retool... but I don't think trading away players like Lance Berkman is the way to go. I think the Astros are about 2 decent starting pitchers away from being a contender... maybe not for the NL Central, but at least for the Wild Card.
The Astros are going to be hard pressed trying to trade for any pitching... due to the lack of a minor league system, the Astros really have little to nothing in trade value that they could turn into big league pitching(unless they are going to trade away some of their current MLB players). So that basically leaves free agency. Free agency means that Drayton is going to have to open the money bags some and move up into the top 10 for spending.. which means move up over the 100 million mark for a team. Unfortunately free agency happens in the off season, so picking up any real contributors to the team during the season doesn't look like too much of an option... so that basically leaves us to standing put with what we have right now; riding out the rest of the season and hoping we can turn it around with what we have... and then in the off season, going after free agent pitching. Going after free agent pitching means we're going to have to overpay for the players... which is going to hurt.
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I voted something else...
...and here is my explanation.
I think a fire sale is a bad idea…we don’t need to start from scratch…some of the big contracts we have (Roy and Lance, particularly) would be nearly impossible to replace on the free agent market, and any trade for minor leaguers is essentially investing in lottery tickets. Yeah, there’s a good chance that , with quality scouting, we could trade for guys who have incredible value as big league players a couple of years down the road. But there’s also the chance that the Baseball Gods decide to even out the karma from the Jeff Bagwell-Larry Anderson trade by giving us two Tommy Johns and a Mario Mendoza in exchange for Lance Berkman.
Further, the big names on our team that could reap a good sized harvest are the “Faces of the Franchise”. Berkman, Oswalt, Lee, Pence. And even Tejada has some drawing power. We need these kinds of players still so that fans have a reason to stay attached to the team and keep spending money. People enjoy watching Berkman and Pence, etc., and will go spend money to see them. If we sell off the popular players, it makes it easier for people to drift away from the ‘Stros and decide that they’d rather spend their money elsewhere. And if we’re going to try to stay afloat through free agent signings while fixing the farm, the team is going to need that money
But staying put isn’t the way to go either. It’s clearly not working for us right now. One thing Ed Wade has done a good job of is finding utility/bench players. It is entirely possible that a team with a shot at the post-season might give up a solid (but not exceptional) minor leaguer or two in exchange for a Loretta + Brocail or Byrdak + Erstad. What I’d be shooting for if I were GM would be finding a trading partner who needs to fill some holes with solid (but not exceptional) big league players this season and trade off the players on our club that won’t fit into the Astros’ long-term plans. In exchange, I’d be looking for players that the other team can’t bring up in time to help them this year, but who might be able to give our club some minor league depth for 2009, 2010, 2011.
I’ve always considered Ed Wade’s job, first and foremost, to be reforming the farm without tanking the profitability of the big-league club. And we do that by trading away solid players with predictable performance who we don’t think will be with us in 2010 and try to strike it rich on the returns. It doesn’t make for exciting baseball right now, maybe, but this club has too many problems to fix all at once, and the post-season dreams of the big league club might have to take a backseat to some other things right now.
Would you not go
If they Astros said they were rebulding? You would rather see the rotten team thay have on the field now?
My thinking is that the Astros cannot go anywhere but maybe 500 with the guys they have. If they use them to retool the system they have a chance to win in a few years. What is the use of having Oswalt and Berkman (the last 2 guys I would want to trade) 2-4 years from now as their careers start to wind down if there is nothing to replace them? The Astros can trade some fringe players and get a maybe prospect or they can trade some team stars and get some real up and coming young players.
Understanding that there are complication like no trade clauses, Lee should be the first one on the trade block but if someone backs up the truck for Berkman or Roy I would make the move.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
For the purposes of this thread, I will pretend like problems of trade logistics don't exist
In short, yes, I’d rather see the rotten team they have now than the even more rotten team they’d have if they traded away their biggest names. That’s because I still watch even when the team isn’t winning. I do this because I’ve grown attached to some of the players. When I miss watching/listening to the games, I like checking the boxscores to see if Lance is any closer to a Triple Crown (and yes, I know it’s early to be talking about that, but it’s still fun to think about). I love those rare occasions when Home Wandy shows up on the road. It’s fun to watch Hunter Pence get more excited than my aunt’s hyperactive golden retriever. I don’t really care pay much attention to what Blum and Loretta do. I’m certainly happy when they do well and help out the team, but they’re not the reason I watch. And I’m sure a lot of other fans are the same way. And if you think Drayton is cheap now, how tight do you think he’ll get if fans stopped filling seats. That’s what I think would happen if we got rid of our big-contract players.
I took a “fire sale” to mean that they were getting rid of a lot (read: more than two, possibly all) of our big players. If they had to start eating into what Wade would call the “team’s nucleus”, I’d rather see them do it in a last-hired-first-fired fashion…specifically Tejada first, then Lee. I’d cringe a whole lot to see Roy O. go, and Berkman would almost feel like a betrayal, even if we were getting a few Tim Beckhams in return. I think losing a big contract would probably be good for us in the long run (Tejada and Lee, I’m looking at you), but a fire sale just alienates fans. I’m willing to make sacrifices to get better, I just think starting from scratch is a bad idea.
Rebuilding mid-season is futile, IMO.
So, I would stand pat and work on a plan for the off-season. Having said that, I might consider trading Loretta, Erstad, Blum, or Wigginton for decent pitching if it becomes available at the trade deadline (which is unlikely). None of those four players will return anything like a high level prospect, but they might bring back another major league player. Really, the Astros are pretty much handcuffed at rebuilding through the trade route. Pence, Oswalt, Berkman, Tejada, and Lee are the valuable players. Tejada is mired in a slump which decreases his value, and McLane loves him too much to trade him anyway. Lee’s contract decreases his value, and (if you believe the HC’s Ortiz) he would never approve a trade. Berkman will only play in Texas, and is unlikely to be tradeable. And I wouldn’t be willing to trade Oswalt unless the Astros got high level ML-ready pitching prospects (like Phil Hughes or Clay Buchholz) in return, and the Twins didn’t succeed in getting that for Santana. I might consider trading Pence for an extraordinary return, but really he probably is not at a high point of his value. When you get past all of that, you really are talking about trading around the fringes.
Why is a mid-season trade or two more futile than during the off-season?
It would seem that mid-season, there will be teams that have a perceived pressing need that our fringe guys might address.
I don't think you will get much of value for fringe veterans.
Teams aren’t giving up high level prospects for those type players anymore. Might get a veteran in return, like the Wheeler for Wiggy trade last year. If you can get more than that, try it. But remember that the Astros got nothing for Lane and Ensberg at mid year last year, and apparently couldn’t get any prospects for Loretta either. The best type trading materia at mid-seasonl is a starting type player or closer type relief pitcher who will become a free agent next year….like Sabbathia, or Gagne and Dotel last year. Given that it’s not that easy to replace Loretta and Erstad on the bench, I don’t think it’s worth trading them for B grade prospects. The Astros’ minor league roster is so barren it’s not like they are blocking any young players.
I agree
Loretta and Erstad have a valuable role on the team… unless you are going to get something that will really help the team(or a decent prospect), there is no reason to trade them just for the sake of trading them.
Go 'Stros!
Loretta and Erstad....
...have been very valuable for the Astros this year. But more valuable than Lee? Berkman? Any of the other guys who would be included in a “fire sale”?
And wouldn’t the fact that they’ve played a valuable role for us mean they might have a valuable role on another team that has a much better shot at the post-season?
While I don’t follow any other teams, and have no clue about what kinds of deals are possible, if trading them makes the team better for more than just a season or two, then we should do it. I’m certainly not suggesting we jettison them off into space or trading them for the sake of making a deal. And let’s not forget that the Wheeler/Wiggy trade was a Purpura transaction, and everybody in the league knew he was kind of a chump, especially in trades. Wade has a good shot at doing better than Purpura.
The way I see it, the Loretta/Erstad type the only kind of player that the Astros might actually trade in-season, and it’s because I consider them to be short-term players for us. I don’t expect any of them to be playing for us past 2009. They’re all on one year contracts for us (though some of them have options). To use them as trading material in the offseason would require us to re-sign them first!
Either one might be a Class B Free Agent after this season...
though that probably is more likely for Loretta. That means they do have potential value if the sign elsewhere next year and give the Astros an extra draft pick.
Why not get what you can
For a player or two during before the trade deadline? That is when some teams will give up the most hoping for a post season run.
I am not advocating selling off everyone just to do it but if a team is willing to pony up a kings ransom for to try and make their season a success I say do it. This season and the next couple are not looking good unless Drayton opens up the pocketbook or someone unforseen steps up.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
Fire Sale
I used to have extreme distaste for the idea of a fire sale, but seeing the Astros where they are with the potential they have is just depressing. Additionally, the heavyweights of the team are starting to age.
With that in mind, I’m mentally resigned to the rebuild. McLane tried to make the transition from the Biggio/Bagwell era to a new one with Oswalt/Berkman, but it obviously never materialized. We had above average pitchers (Clemens, Pettitte) and hitters (Tejada, Lee), but were unable to pull it off.
The money squandered… The bad trades… The missed draft picks… If you start adding up the scenarios in your head, the gaffes are high in number. (as a start: Bagwell insurance, Clemens price tag, Jennings trade, Clemens/Pettitte draft picks, Woody Williams)
At some point you have to cut your losses. McLane’s not going to be able to spend his way out of this slump unless he puts the Astros in the top five salaries of MLB and commits to that for years to come.
In my mind, everybody but Berkman should be seriously considered for the auction block.
I like the idea of trading to teams with good minor league prospects, but I do agree that greater bounty can be had at the end of the season. That being said, we should try to score a few lopsided trades with some of the contender teams before August, if they can be had.
Enough’s enough. I don’t want to see the Astros like the Pirates for the next several years. Let’s take the pain now and get it behind us.
Touche Pel!
I like the idea and the open realization that the Astros don’t have it now and not much to look forward to.
Maybe someone can send this to Drayton because so far he has not been able to grasp this.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
Face it
The Astros suck and they will continue to suck for the next two or three years. What matters - the only thing that matters - is bringing the farm system back to life. We can get good AA AAA prospects using rule 5, so make the trades for class A prospects and draft picks.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

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