Should the Astros trade for Manny Ramirez?
by lnewcomer on Jul 27, 2008 4:30 PM CDT
24 comments
Ken Rosenthal has an article detailing the Sox woes with Manny and includes the fact that they can't find a trade partner for him b/c of the problem of getting anything in return and Manny is crazy. Nobody has mentioned the Astros that I'm aware of, and they're not likely to, because we're so far out of contention.
Manny's contract expires after this season and there are consecutive one-year team options at $20M per season.
Carlos Lee, while not Manny's equivalent as a hitter is probably solidly in the next level down. He's signed for 4 more seasons after this one, at $18.5M per year (I think). Both are defensively challenged left fielders, but Manny is probably a better defender than Carlos.
Both Carlos and Manny would have to approve a trade. Carlos has a no-trade clause and Manny has 10-5 rights. Manny might require some kind of guarantee or extension.
Carlos would have to want to go somewhere if he's to be traded, but the defending World Series champs is probably the best baseball situation he could hope for.
What would it buy the Astros? We would regain payroll flexibility and control whether we want to spend roughly $20M over the next couple of years for a defensive liability. We would have to put up with Manny. I don't think the Red Sox would throw in anything else for us to take Manny, but perhaps we could send a major league player and get a minor league piece in return. (Boston is looking for help at SS; throw in Miggy and make it a blockbuster?)
This will almost certainly NOT happen. It would require the approval of two players, one of whom is crazy. It would require Drayton to admit he screwed up with his prized acquisition of Carlos Lee. The Astros would get Manny in return, which would fill the hole in the lineup for the next couple years, but would also get his temperament. You lose intangibles of clubhouse goodwill and fan approval.
Why I like it - Carlos Lee is a very good hitter, but he's overpaid relative to his production and that disparity will continue to get worse over the next four years. Say we guarantee Manny's remaining years, we trade 4 more years for 2 more years. Maybe that makes it easier to pursue 2 starting pitchers in the offseason.
What do you think?
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I know most people are tired of Carlos's defence, but
Manny is the worst defender in LF according to most of fielding analysis stats.
for example
The fielding bible ranking accumulated from 05-07
07 ranking
I don’t like the idea trade trade Lee for Manny, but if Boston need LF after they losing Manny, I would like trade Lee to them for prospects.
by HubertL on Jul 27, 2008 6:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm still not under the impression that
Drayton screwed up by getting Carlos Lee.. Lee is producing at about exactly what we expected him to do. He’s a VERY good solid offensive player. He’s not Lance Berkman… but he’s not an average player offensively by any means.
No way in hell Manny approves a trade to Houston. Look for him to go to the Yankees or Mets
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 27, 2008 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Carlos Lee
He’s a stabllizing factor for the Astros at a time when they really need one. Astros should keep him.
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 28, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stabilizing What?
A losing record and no future?
Locker room cohesion is BS. When teams win they get along great. Even the 70’s A’s hated each other and still won. Want a locker room stud you can get Sean Casey for 2 million a year and have money to put into the system.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
by TBurford on Jul 28, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee's Production is not the Problem
It is the contract itself. Next year Lee will be one of the 5 highest paid players in baseball but no one in their right mind will argue that Lee is one of the 5 best players in baseball. Or one of the 20 best for that matter. The contract was a bad move by the Astros when it was signed and is just getting worse. It was designed to make the Astros look like they were going to be a winning team when they were really just running in place. Drayton thinks are stupid and will fall for this.
BUT as for the trade – YES!! if you can get rid of Carlos and his contract for half a year of Manny or even the club option for next year you have to do it. The Astros will clear space and give their future a chance instead of bogging it down.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
by TBurford on Jul 28, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care about the contract
Who are we going to find to replace Lee’s production for any salary range?
Find me a better player that we can sign for less money on the open market and then we can talk about Lee’s contract being bad. We needed outfield production and we paid to get it. Yea it was a steep price, but the way the baseball market is now with teams raking in the dough… it was a price that was worth paying(assuming Lee keeps up his offensive numbers).
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 28, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does the production get us?
Fifth place in the NL Central? Now we can all chant ‘We’re not the Pirates.’ Is that worth it? Wouldn’t it have been better to keep the money and put it toward the future?
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
by TBurford on Jul 28, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee isn't to blame for us being in 5th place
and trading him would open up a huge hole in left and still not fix the problems we have with our starting pitching. If you want to give up on the next few seasons, fine trade Lee… but Trade Oswalt and Berkman and any other good player you have as well.
Lee’s going to be a good hitter at least a few more years(granted, his defense will decline). Hopefully when the team gets back to having some decent stating pitching, he’ll still be around and filling the left field positing.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 28, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what if there is a huge whole in left?
The Astros are still a bad team with it filled. Lee doesn’t change that. Carlos – because of his contract – needs to be the first on the trade block. What decent starting pitching do you see coming when Carlos can still play and doesn’t double as Jabba the Hut in the next Star Wars movie? I am more than ok with blowing up the team and starting at square one. I think anyone should be available for the right price right now. The Astros have no present and no future other than as a bad team unless make some major changes. Including their philosophy.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
by TBurford on Jul 28, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you trust
our management to trade away Lee and get anything good in return?
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 28, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting rid of Lee's contract is good
If we are not paying Lee and can use some extra cash to help out the system that helps the Astros. We could at least get rid the albatross and then figure out how to drive the boat.
I do not buy into Clack’s idea that we would be as good with Erst in LF but the worst that could happen if we traded Lee is that the Astros would be a bad team. Or still be a bad team that is.
My friends suggested I see someone about my baseball problem. So I made an appointment but just ended up helping the doctor with his fantasy team.
by TBurford on Jul 29, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to engage in heresy...
but I’m not sure that the Astros are a better team with Lee in LF than if Erstad was the starting LFer. Lee’s poor LF defense erodes a LOT of the offensive difference between him and Erstad. I have seen calculations which would indicate that Lee is approximately an average player if the runs he gives up on defense are netted against the runs he produces on offense. I may not totally buy into those calculations. But there is a grain of truth to them. However, Lee’s contract probably keeps him from going anywhere, so appreciate his offfense while we can, I suppose.
by clack on Jul 28, 2008 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Setting everything else aside...
I don’t think the Red Sox would make the trade. I think their front office is too smart to take on Carlos Lee’s contract. From an Astros’ perspective, I think the trade idea is commendable, but it’s doubtful that either player agrees to waive no trade provisions. I agree with Stros Bro that Lee’s offense has been exactly what the Astros wanted. But the problem with Lee’s contract is two fold. First, the length is likely to exceed the duration of his productivity, both offensively and defensively. Second, Lee will be paid a very high price in the future to play one of the easier positions to fill (LF). His contract will escalate to 18.5 million next year. Because LF is one of the least demanding positions, defensively, teams should be able to acquire decent offensive players at a lower cost.
by clack on Jul 27, 2008 11:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Lee isn't going to be traded anytime soon...
so we should just live with it.
For the record, I like him.
by entropic soul on Jul 28, 2008 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Manny will only approve a trade if the team he lands on promises up front to waive his options so he can be a FA after this year. So on $ alone that would be great for us because we’d save a ton. Unfortuanately, the Red Sox have a DH and they’re two smart to replace a big bad and attrocious glove with the same thing.
by GIDP on Jul 28, 2008 4:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The reason they are wanting to get rid of Manny
has nothing to do with his on field ability.
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 28, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work with
a surgeon who’s a huge Red Sox fan (grew up near Boston, followed the team his whole life, not like some of the current bandwagon-types). He predicts Manny will now go on some big hitting tear and the team will keep him. If they make the post-season, especially if they/Manny do well, the hatchet will be buried yet again and they’ll exercise his option. The surgeon says it’s as predictable as the changes of the season, although he did allow as how management might be a little less tolerant after the shoving incident.
75% of the Earth's surface is covered by water. . . the other 25% by Michael Bourn
by Danyah on Jul 28, 2008 6:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
fans love Manny too
I went to a red sox game earlier in the year and I was amazed at the cheers that he received when he stepped up to the plate. The only way you hear those cheers here is if it’s Berkman and there are runners on and he could win the game for us.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by TimStros on Jul 28, 2008 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well i say it will be half and half carlos lee is a very aggresive batter and also stays in the game unlike manny when he threw the fan the ball and it was only two outs but manny i believe is a better hitter and has a cannon i think it might happen and if it does it will hurt the astros and it will gain the astros same as the red sox
by houston astros on Jul 28, 2008 9:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Manny's not the only one to give the ball away :)
Go 'Stros!
by Stros Bro on Jul 28, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth.
Alyson Footer says in her latest mailbag that Carlos Lee has said he will not approve a trade under any circumstances.
by entropic soul on Jul 29, 2008 2:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Manny is...
a clubhouse cancer, Carlos is beloved.
A Walk Is As Good As A Hit.
by NocturnalMatt on Jul 29, 2008 5:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We can't hold on to every player just because we like them.
I am with TBurford that it is time to start over. To keep adding a Lee one year and a Tejada the next is like living in a state of denial. We’re not going to be a contender for some time, and the longer the club makes patchwork changes to the big league team at the expense of the minor league system, the longer the agony will continue. We’re years away from putting a deep team together. I know Carlos has said he won’t approve any trade, but is it really possible he’d pass up a chance to play for a ring? If so, what does that say about his competitive drive? If we lost a Lee, Pence, Berkman or Oswalt, yeah, I’d be real sad. But we need to rebuild, the sooner the better.
Hi, my name is Rich and I'm an Astroholic.
by Austin Astroholic on Jul 30, 2008 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't blame a player like Berkman or Lee, if they hold to their no trade clause.
It’s something they bargained for…gave up money for…which means that the city they chose to play in was important to them. Yes, perhaps more important than playing for a perennial World Series contender. I don’t blame them. I have given up many better job opportunities because I like where I live.
by clack on Jul 30, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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