Jeff Bagwell v. Craig Biggio
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 2:23 AM CST
33 comments
In lieu of meaningful Astros news for the present, it's time to stir up some lively discussion before we have the "Astro-iest Tournament" over Christmas Break (well, for students at least). What better way to do that than make Astros fans choose between the two most beloved icons in franchise history: Jeffery Robert and Craig Alan. The backbone of the Killer B's. The two guys whose reactions you couldn't wait to see after Game 6 of the 2005 NLCS.
Feel free to base your decision on statistics, intangibles, career accomplishments, willingness to do what was best for the team, looks, charitable contributions, helment dirt accumulation, etc. This, I'm sure will be the most gut wrenching of decisions, but one which I am anxious to see.
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Easy choice for me
Batman Bagwell and his trusty sidekick Robin the boy Biggio
Astros fan for life
by Joe in Birmingham on Dec 8, 2008 2:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Haha
True, perhaps.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 2:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll start off my rationalization of guilt
I chose Bags. While Craig is one of the most enigmatic of baseball players I’ve ever tried to appraise, my decision didn’t come down to stats or really anything profound. As an athlete who also saw his career cut short by an unfortunate injury, I feel for Jeff on a personal level.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 2:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i chose Bags as well
it took me at least three trips back to the blog to decide though…and i still don’t know why i chose bagwell over biggio, something inside of me just said “pick jeff”
by Evan Hochschild on Dec 8, 2008 6:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, you jumped right into the Astro-iest contest with what would probably be a Finals or Semi-finals kind of matchup!
by AstroAndy on Dec 8, 2008 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows
I’m going to assign everyone numbers and through it in a random number generator, so it could be a preliminary round.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 9, 2008 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I also
thought this would be a lot closer and leave a potential rematch all the more exciting.
Sorry.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 9, 2008 12:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
went with biggio
lasted longer…3,000 hits…it was very cloe though
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Dec 8, 2008 7:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is almost an impossible question to answer.
You’re dealing with two of the best players ever at their respective positions. I think Bill James had Biggio as something like the fifth best second baseman of all time, and Bagwell was fourth at first base. They were both ridiculously good players, and neither (even Bagwell, who was far more nationally recognized) got the respect that they deserved outside of Houston and the NL Central.
I think almost everyone will instinctively say Bagwell was the better player, and it’s interesting to not that, despite Bagwell’s slightly shorter career, he still exceeds Biggio on WARP. But something has to be said for longevity, and Biggio played a much more difficult position.
Ultimately, I think we all know that Biggio’s contributions to the game – relative speed, good defense, and rarely causing extra outs – are more difficult to objectively analyze. And there’s something truly incredible about some of the stuff that Bidge did: that ‘97 season, when he never hit into a single double play, despite playing in every single game. After watching Tejada, that’s an unbelievable accomplishment. He stole bases efficiently over his whole career, succeeding 76% of the time over his career (Bagwell also ran efficiently, something that is often overlooked, too).
So I’d have to vote for Biggio. He had a substantially longer career, played a significantly more difficult position (though Bagwell was a fantastic fielder, too), and was probably the best second baseman of his era (screw Alomar, he’s overrated).
by Only_A_Lad on Dec 8, 2008 7:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Biggio
Bagwell had the juicer stats, something that I still find tough to overlook, esp. as JB shrunk to somewhat normal size after his playing days ended. I’m not making any declarative statements, but let’s recall the era that he excelled in…
That said, I love both of them. But Biggio was a little guy scrapping it around in the go-go long-ball 90s. That he played as long as he did, as hard as he did, and in the style that he did makes him THE Astro for the ages.
by alamosweet on Dec 8, 2008 8:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I suspect that every athlete "shrinks"
after his career ends. You stop working out as much, so there’s that.
by Only_A_Lad on Dec 8, 2008 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I go with Biggio.
He played tougher defensive positions, which you have to take into account in comparing offensive stats. And when you think about Biggio’s playing catcher, CF, LF, and 2d base as a starter during his career, that is very unusual, if not unprecedented. I think Biggio in his prime was like Jackie Robinson, a spark that made the offense run. I truly like Bagwell, but I believe Biggio has a much better chance of making the Hall of Fame.
by clack on Dec 8, 2008 8:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
They're both going to make the hall of fame
no question about it.
by Only_A_Lad on Dec 8, 2008 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would like to think that's true...
but I feel that Bagwell making it is more questionable. Not that I don’t think he deserves it. But he may be hurt by the steroids era; I mean there are some voters who say they won’t vote for any sluggers from the era. Plus, Bagwell’s unfortunate injury kept him from getting to some of the threshold counting stats, like career HRs, which voters like. Then you have a number of slugging 1st baseman who will be eligible in a similar time frame….Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGuire. Hopefully, I am wrong, and one good point is that the newspaper sports writers may be a little bit more sabermetric oriented in a few years.
by clack on Dec 8, 2008 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the great thing about Bagwell is that he was obviously great
you don’t need any sort of sabermetric backing on that like you do with Biggio (or at least like you would have had Biggio not gotten 3000 hits). 449 HR, 1529 RBI, Rookie of the Year, MVP for 1994, top 3 in MBP voting three times, three silver sluggers, three 40-30 seasons, gold glove, and four all-star games. Even by conventional baseball metrics, he was clearly one of the best. And all of the hall-of-fame likelihood metrics have him as a very clear choice.
As you say, some might have a problem with voting for sluggers from the 90s, but I suspect not many will. And Bagwell was never the subject of any serious accusations (yeah, Caminiti said that they did steroids, but one interview more than a decade after the fact is not much evidence).
As far as other 1B options for voters, I suspect that if McGuire and Palmeiro are going to get in, they will be in long before Bagwell’s eligibility is up. And if the voters don’t have a problem with voting for those two, they definitely won’t have a problem with Bagwell. It might take two or three years, but Bagwell will be in the Hall of Fame, as will Biggio.
by Only_A_Lad on Dec 8, 2008 10:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Only reason I mentioned "sabermetric" writers...
is that I think they are less inclined to draw a line using counting stats. I read news articles now which say that the “dividing line” for Hall admission for 90’s and later era sluggers will be 500 HRs. Of course, there is a lot more to baseball than home runs, and someone who accepts sabermetric principles would realize that.
By the way, another 1st baseman who may be eligible in the same time frame is Carlos Delgado. The NY media is already talking about him as a future Hall of Famer. He is likely to hit the magic 500 HR threshold.
by clack on Dec 9, 2008 7:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tough decision
Ended up going with Biggio. Rationale: the Astros drafted Biggio, (they had to trade for Bagwell) so he was literally an Astro for his entire pro career. This vote is like my own personal message to Drayton that the draft is where you find your future stars…so spend the money there to get the right guys.
by AstroAndy on Dec 8, 2008 9:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well done.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly the reason
That I voted for Biggio. It’s like the 300th tiebreaker, but it’s the only tiebreaker that makes a difference, and as UT fans know, the fifth (or fiftieth) tiebreaker is pretty arbitrary.
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on Dec 8, 2008 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
Oh college football.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bagwell
Growing up, my favorite was Bagwell, and my brother’s was Biggio. I can’t very well change now, can I?
by aarcraft on Dec 8, 2008 9:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pretty close
So far.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 2:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Gotta go with Craig
While Bagwell was the best first baseman of the 90s, and his numbers took a hit playing in the dome, I have to go with Craig as the Greatest Astro. For me it’s because I can’t pick that signature moment for Bags. With Biggio, it was his 3,000 night (still the greatest night of my life, and will probably still be the greatest day even after marriage and kids). He already had 3,000 hits, but with 2 outs in the 9th beats out an infield single to save the game, later scores to tie it, and then scores on the Carlos Lee walk-off Grand Slam. Thats the Greatest Astro of all time!
by CVEEEE on Dec 8, 2008 3:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Cve
I will be sure to hand that to your future wife, so she knows what she’s up against.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
bagwell
didn’t hurt the team with selfish pursuit of numbers
by Will McDonald on Dec 8, 2008 3:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
selfish...
its not like we were a playoff team with Chris Burke playing
by CVEEEE on Dec 8, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Echoing Cve
It’s not like we were really stymieing an talent from truly flourishing.
BTW: Who said he was selfish?…I want to give them a -1.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Craig Alan
Putting the screws to Bags.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 4:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I went with Baggy
pure class. I loved his attitude. His batting stance was truly epic. He was feared across the league.
I love Biggio too but his last few years sort of tainted his career in my eyes. Biggio’s chase for 3,000 destroyed Chris Burke’s development. Biggio should’ve moved over for him. 3,000 was due to longevity and McLane and co. making sure he got it. Check the number of ABs it took him to get 3,000. It ranks fairly low to the other 3,000 guys. His defense became pretty much a liability in his last few years as well.
by goingforthecorner on Dec 8, 2008 8:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
All valid points
And I agree it lessened him in my eyes all of 2007, but that night was truly epic — like Baggie’s stance.
The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
by Stephen Higdon on Dec 8, 2008 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I had to go with Bags
Man, I love Biggio but Bags was an always be my favorite player. Biggio has all the big numbers in part due to longevity but Bags had a number of ways to win a game for the Stros (defense, power, smart base running and so on), not saying Biggio didn’t and I almost went with Biggio because all the positions he played but my heart lies with Bags.
SeoulStro
Biggio and Bagwell for the HOF!
by SeoulStro on Dec 8, 2008 10:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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