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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

NLCS goes to "tinsel town"

Somebody might want to talk about tonight's Dodger-Philly game.  So, here is a place to post any comments you want.  I felt that the Dodgers would likely win this game, in part because the series is now in LA and in part because I figured Moyer would have problems with the Dodgers.  I went out to dinner and come home to 6-1 Dodgers' lead in the 4th.  Now, as I write this, the Dodgers lead 7-1 in the 6th. 

Manny Ramirez appears to be continuing his offensive production, getting on base and knocking in one of the runs.  Mark Grace said during the pre game show that "Manny Ramirez is the best hitter in baseball right now."  That comment took me aback.  Don't get me wrong, Manny is a fabulous hitter.  But, I don't think of him as the current best hitter in baseball.  (Maybe he was...five years ago.)  Perhaps Grace only meant to say that Manny is the hottest hitter in baseball right now.  But that is a bit different concept than just plain "the best hitter."

Another interesting commentary by a so-called expert, which surprised me:  Mike Lupica of the NY Daily News says that Brad Lidge should win the NL Most Valuable Player. 

Lupica Quote

Wouldn't that send the "closers are over-valued" crowd over the edge?

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Phillies kicking up somedust in the 7th inning.

Utley scores a run, and still 2 on base with no outs. Kuroda is being lifted by Torre.

by clack on Oct 12, 2008 9:26 PM CDT reply actions  

"Wouldn't that send the "closers are over-valued" crowd over the edge?"

Yep. Because they are overvalued, especially they way they are typically used.

Lidge is one of the best relievers in the game, but he only played in about 5% of the team’s innings. I just don’t think that a guy who played in 69 1/3 innings should get the MVP. I don’t think you can make a case for a relief pitcher being the most valuable player on a team.

If you’re going to award the NL MVP to a playoff team, it should go to Chase Utley.

by Only_A_Lad on Oct 12, 2008 9:48 PM CDT reply actions  

has a reliever ever won MVP?

for that matter, pitchers rarely win the MVP, and relievers rarely win the Cy Young Award. And it’s not like we’re talking about a Mike Marshall type year for Lidge. (Marshall won the CYA…did he win a MVP? maybe that answers my question.)

Lidge had 13 Win Shares this season…that isn’t even his best WS season. Lidge tallied 17 Win Shares in 2004 for the Astros, and that is one of the highest WS totals I can recall for a closer. Rivera put up 17 WS this year and also in 2005. In those 17 win shares seasons, Lidge and Rivera were equivalent in value to good, though not the best, starting pitchers.

 By comparison to Lidge’s 13 WS this year, Berkman leads the NL in WS with 38, and Lincecum has the WS lead among pitchers with 27. Quite a few pitchers have win share totals better than Lidge, including Oswalt with 18.

by clack on Oct 12, 2008 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK, Marshall didn't win a MVP.

He won the CYA in 1974, and was 3d in the MVP. He pitched 208 innings that year as a closer. Wow, times change.

by clack on Oct 12, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, sure Lupica's statement looks bad

if you get all objective about it. How can a national sports writer be expected to back up his arguments with “facts” and “non-bullshit?”

Yeah, if you bring in win shares (or any objective criteria beyond saves), Lidge’s season isn’t quite as impressive. He’s still (as I said) one of the best relievers in the game, but he didn’t contribute the most to his team’s victories. If that’s the case, then he clearly doesn’t deserve MVP.

Of course, you could make the case that he was the best pitcher in the NL this year, but a better case can be made for Lincecum or Santana.

He’ll win that stupid Rolaids award for sure, though.

And the Win Shares argument backs up Utley’s candidacy, too. I’m surprised he doesn’t get mentioned as much – the sports media seems to like Ryan Howard more. And Utley has all the things that the sports media loves: he hits for average, as well as power; he plays good defense, and he’s a personable white guy.

by Only_A_Lad on Oct 12, 2008 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

LA Wins. 7-2.

Post game interivews/show focuses on a skirmish early in the game when Kuroda threw over Victorina’s head. Russell Martin, by the way, admits that it was a purpose pitch, but said it wasn’t anywhere close to Victorina’s head because it was so high. Post game crew seems to think that Kuroda was sending a good message that he would respond more firmly than Billingsley…..

by clack on Oct 12, 2008 10:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Brad Lidge

Actually I thought of Brad Lidge for MVP. The other day I picked Ryan Braun (while cringing). Most people here disagree with me on that and I can understand their reasoning. I don’t expect Berun to win it, either

I don’t expect Brad Lidge to win it, either.

But he’s like 40-0 (or better) in save opportunities. That “0” means a lot. The Phillies would not be in the playoffs, much less lead the NLCS, without Lidge’s great year. I can imagine him winning comeback player of the year – and MVP — while losing the Cy Young.

He won’t win because as a reliever he wasn’t considered is the way I see it. But it would not offend my sensibilties if he did win. In fact, I’d like to see him win.

and I’d really love to see Michael Bourn win it in 2009 (assuming he is still on the Astros) (I wonder what the betting odds are on Bourn winning 2009 MVP)

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 13, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm not buying an MVP for Lidge, Joe.

yeah, his saves were critical. but so were Cole Hamel’s wins. and Utley’s HRs, as well as Burrell’s HRs, etc. You could pick out several Philly players whose outstanding years were critical to the team succeeding. I tend to agree with Lad, above, that Lidge may not be the MVP for the Phillies, much less the NL. That’s not to say that Lidge wasn’t the best closer in the NL…he may have been (though Valverde had more saves). I think Lidge was more nearly MVP material in 2004 with the Astros than this year. As I noted in my post above, his 17 win shares was outstanding for a reliever, and he did that in only 2/3 of a season as closer (recall that he didn’t become closer in 04 until Dotel was traded for Beltran). One of the reasons he was so valuable in 04 is that Garner used him in more difficult (highly leveraged) situations, many times bringing him in for >1 inning saves with runners on base in the 8th inning.

by clack on Oct 13, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree with you

I think Lidge by his consistent success added a confidence level to the Phillies (plus wins of course). I’m curious what happens to the Phillies in subsequent games if Lidge blows a save in the playoffs.

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 13, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of our friend Brad Lidge

bottom of the 8th, 2 out. Lidge comes in to get Manny out. Manny doubles. Russell Martin strikes out, but reaches base on a wild pitch. Let’s see what Loney can do here.

by Only_A_Lad on Oct 13, 2008 10:48 PM CDT reply actions  

the 4-run 8th inning

seem to come out of nowhere. I thought it would be another boring game and was barely paying attention, then ‘huh, what?!’ I know Victorino’s been hot lately but Stairs? A shocking bullpen meltdown it seemed, though really I know little about the Dodgers and maybe that’s the kind of thing the Dodgers do …

by mokulen on Oct 13, 2008 11:25 PM CDT reply actions  

mildly rooting for the Dodgers...

but I have to admit that 8th inning was exciting. Broxton has been a good closer….but he did melt down against the Astros in the May Dodgers’ series.

by clack on Oct 14, 2008 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did you notice Bruntlett

played left field the last few innings for Phillies tonight?

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 14, 2008 1:09 AM CDT reply actions  

he has been doing that pretty consistently lately.

I guess he is the main defensive replacement for the Phillies.

by clack on Oct 14, 2008 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Poor Wakefield

He’s getting his ass kicked in the first inning. Too bad, because I like the guy. Not sorry to see the Red Sox hurt, though.

by Only_A_Lad on Oct 14, 2008 7:13 PM CDT reply actions  

Rays Routing Red Sox in Game 4

It’s 10-1 in the sixth inning and Rays are still batting with the bases loaded and only one out. Seven consecutive Rays have reached bases this inning after the first batter made the sole out.

Batter has full count. Let’s see what he does. Batter is Navarro. Grounded to short . Run scores. Ten run rule doesn’t apply . Score is 11-1

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 14, 2008 9:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Jose Canseco at it again

FROM INTERNET (I edited out paratraphs) :
Jose Canseco was charged in federal court Tuesday with a misdemeanor offense of trying to bring a fertility drug across the border from Mexico.

Canseco was detained at San Diego’s San Ysidro border crossing Thursday after agents searched his vehicle and said they found human chorionic gonadotropin, which is illegal without a prescription, according to his attorney, Gregory Emerson.

The drug is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency for use in males. The drug helps restore production of testosterone lost in steroid users.

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 14, 2008 9:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Rays win 13-4

lead series 3 games to 1

Astros fan for life

by Joe in Birmingham on Oct 14, 2008 10:16 PM CDT reply actions  

It would be so awesome if we hadn't managed to not obtain

All the sweet Houston talent in our back yard.

The Crawfishboxes
A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

by Stephen Higdon on Oct 14, 2008 11:01 PM CDT reply actions  

What are you talking about?

We’ve got Michael “Effing” Bourn!

by Only_A_Lad on Oct 14, 2008 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Random comment

Did anyone else notice that they’ve changed astros.com to allow comments at the bottom of every article? I haven’t spent a whole lot of time looking at it, but I hope there’s a way to disable that. I don’t want to have to wait for all the comments from Tom/Dick/Harry to load to read an article.

Okay, back to my coffee now. . . .

by Danyah on Oct 15, 2008 5:24 AM CDT reply actions  

Nope didn't notice it

until you mentioned it…

I won’t be spending much time there… but it kind of gives it more of a blog feel…

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Oct 15, 2008 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

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