Looking For A Working Link

by rastronomicals on Jan 7, 2008 7:11 PM CST in News

to an audio clip of the reputed McNamee-Clemens conversation.

The Chronicle link is not working.

I listen to the ESPN radio station out of Palm Beach, 70 or 80 miles north of where I work and commute, and lots of times late in the days, their broadcasts are seriously compromised by static.

Today as I drove home, I could tell the station was playing a recording of a telephone conversation, and gradually, in between the electronic fuzz, it became clear that they had somehow gotten a copy of the phone call between Clemens and his ex-trainer that people had been talking about this morning.

I heard this and that, including the voice that's supposed to be McNamee saying "What do you want me to do?" more than a couple times.

But I missed a lot.

When I got home I found out that it was actually Clemens who provided the media with the tape, before his press conference, but I've been unable to find anyone who's actually posted the audio on their site (although the Chronicle appears to do so, without actually coming up with the goods).

Thanks.

[Update]
Link to the phone call from 790thesportsanimal.com.

[Reply to Update] StrosBro is the man, in case I haven't said.

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Well

After listening to the phone call... I don't know what to think. McNamee says multiple times in the interview "What do you want me to do" and Roger never responds with "tell the truth" like I would have... He did say I just want you to tell the truth earlier in the phone call, but I don't really know what to think.

The conversation from Roger's standpoint seems to be sincere and honest, but then again, he's the one that taped the phone call and he's the one that provided it to the press.

Honestly during the interview, it didn't seem like an interview between two people who are either A) suing the other for defamation of character or B) going to sue if the other calls him a liar.

McNamee also multiple times in the interview talks about how he doesn't have anything, living in a 1 bedroom something and that his 10 year old son is dying... so it sounds like he's in a bad spot, but who knows.

Roger does ask him why he would tell people that he used steroids and McNamee never really gives a straight answer that I could decipher.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Jan 7, 2008 7:35 PM CST reply actions

Meh

I said during the "interview", but obviously I meant phone call.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Jan 7, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions

You Ever Hear

one of those wiretapped phonecalls between members of the mob?

Melanie used to work at an Italian market, and there was this 90-year old guy, pure mafia, made man for 50 years, had his own ring, the whole schmeer, eventually he went up and everything. Anyway, he'd hang out by the phone booth, taking calls, and Melanie would overhear some of 'em and she'd come home and tell me what it was like overhearing his end.

"Yeah, we're gonna see those guys about that thing, we're gonna talk to him first where it's safe, and then we're gonna . . . go an' take care of that."

That's what it was like; they know they're being taped by the Feds and they're not gonna say anything that might incriminate them.

I've been leaning in Clemens' direction for over a week now, with the nature of his denials, the strength of them, the insistence of them.

You ain't never seen Barry Bonds do this, let's just say that.

And the 60 Minutes thing further pushed me in the direction from which the cries of Clemens' innocence came.

But this tape don't help. Seems to me this was orchestrated, McNamee knew he was being taped, and the two of them had agreed that nobody was gonna get anybody in any further trouble with perjury or maybe letting slip the names of incriminating people, but that maybe they could put together something that implied something without actually saying it.

Clemens wants us to think it implies his innocence, but in the end I think it does the opposite.

The tape's fishy as all hell, and for Rusty Hardin to say he think it advances Rocket's cause, he's crazy.

I'm gonna go watch the rest of the press conference now, see what I think of that.

Cortisone shots: Not just for overpaid athletes anymore.

by rastronomicals on Jan 7, 2008 8:01 PM CST reply actions

Maybe He's Just Taken Acting Lessons

'cause I found the press conference again very convincing.

Loved how he was pissed off at everyone. Walking out was good, too.

Justice says lidocaine probably couldn't be administered by a trainer, and that it's shot into the joints and not in the lower back like Clemens said.

Anyone feel qualified to comment?

In the meantime, I think I'll pour myself a tall, cool, glass of B12 . . . . .

Cortisone shots: Not just for overpaid athletes anymore.

by rastronomicals on Jan 7, 2008 8:33 PM CST reply actions

Don't know if I count as qualified

but the comment about getting injected in the lower back actually seemed potentially more plausible to me than any of the other explanations. It's fairly common to get bursitis, including around the sacroiliac joint, so if that's the kind of thing Clemens is claiming to have gotten injections for, I could see that. I personally wouldn't have had it done by a trainer, but on the other hand, Clemens evidently trusted McNamee a lot--Deadspin linked that article from the NY Times from a few years back in which McNamee even told Clemens what he was allowed to eat. It almost seemed like he completely abdicated his responsibility for his health to the guy. I don't consider that a healthy (pun intended) attitude, but I do see it fairly often in my work--usually it is a husband who can't answer any questions about his health history and must turn to his wife for the answers.

I too, am finding Clemens more credible as this plays out. Hearing an explanation about the lidocaine, that actually made a little sense, helped for me for sure. But even if he does turn out to be guilty, I am finding his crucifixion in the media, and on blogs other than this one, to be more and more unpalatable.

by Danyah on Jan 7, 2008 9:17 PM CST up reply actions

Trying to clarify

my thoughts here, since my comments have been scattered all over the place. My first thought on the lidocaine and/or B12 thing was, to quote Clemens, "hogwash." Sure, people take B12 for lots of reasons, so okay, but other than a placebo effect, unless you're malnourished or have a specific disease process that prevents gut absorption of the vitamin, it clinically has not been shown to do anything. And given that it's already negatively associated with the steroid mess via clubhouse code words and Miguel Tejada, I thought it was ill-advised for Clemens to introduce it into his defense. As for lidocaine, like I mention below, it itself is an extremely painful injection, so it's hard for me to imagine using it to numb a B12 shot. Also, it certainly has no systemic effect if injected into the butt, which is of course where McNamee said he injected Clemens (it does have systemic effects if given IV, just for the record, but nothing that would help him go out and pitch or make his joints feel better). I thought at first maybe he was going to say that BM gave him intra-articular lidocaine, which, BAD idea if done by a trainer! And intra-articular back injections, like the ones described in some of the sources clack mentioned, must generally be done under fluoroscopy (very tricky to find the exact spot to inject). However, if done for something like bursitis, it would be given the same way people get cortisone shots for same--find the place that hurts and stick a needle in it. Clubhouse trainers have certainly been known to give cortisone shots--Bagwell is a prime example--but of course they are also considered to be under the supervision of a physician at the time. Lidocaine given in such a way would only last for two to three hours--or should I say, six to seven innings?

Clemens has not yet been specific enough about the injections to know if anything above applies. I don't know if that means he is hiding something, or if he actually doesn't know. Many people are uneducated about their personal health, as I mentioned--if he abdicated this responsibility to BM, maybe he just doesn't know enough to say, "Well, I had a little touch of SI joint bursitis in the fall of 1998, and I believe I got some lidocaine before a couple of games so I could get out there and compete." Who knows. This article brings up some interesting points about clubhouse records, though.

by Danyah on Jan 8, 2008 5:42 AM CST up reply actions

Hmm.

I think I might need to back-peddle a bit. We did a knee scope today, and the patient was going to have his shoulder injected as well while he was asleep. The surgeon, whom I (at least used to) respect, didn't even put on sterile gloves and just wiped the patient's shoulder area with alcohol before the injection. I thought I was going to throw up, frankly. That's the first time I have ever seen one done like that, so I know it's not common practice in the O.R., but still--if any orthopedic surgeon feels comfortable using such minimal infection prevention, why would Clemens bat an eye when McNamee or someone else shot lidocaine straight into one of his joints? Gives me chills, but. . . .

by Danyah on Jan 8, 2008 8:01 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not a health professional...

but from what I can find on the internet, what Clemens says is plausible. From WebMD's article on back pain:

"To relieve inflammation and inhibit the patient's pain perception in severe cases, therapy may include an injection of a local anesthetic, such as lidocaine in combination with a corticosteroid, into the tissue around the affected area or into trigger points elsewhere in the body. For relief of chronic back pain, low doses of antidepressant medications are sometimes prescribed."

From a web site "AllAboutBackAndNeckPain":
"With most spinal injections, a local anesthetic (numbing medication) called lidocaine (also known as Xylocaine) is injected into a specific area of the spine...Cortisone is a strong anti-inflammatory steroid medication. It is commonly injected along with a local anesthetic in order to reduce inflammation in the affected areas."

EMedicine.com article on chronic back pain:
"Local anesthetics, corticosteroids, or other substances may be directly injected into painful soft tissues, facet joints, nerve roots, or epidural spaces."

Whether it is a good idea for a trainer to do this...that may be a different story.

by clack on Jan 7, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions

All of the Above?

How about the possibility that Clemens took all of it? 'Roids, B12, and pain killers?

Also, I have heard that a warning sign to steroids use is pulling muscles in strange places due to the unnatural increase in muscle weight.

The back and the groin aren't completely out of the ordinary for a pitcher, but it is perhaps of note that his arm and shoulder never seem to have the problems the rest of his body has.

by pel on Jan 7, 2008 10:17 PM CST up reply actions

I've also heard that

the B12 shot is painful and sometimes they use a local anesthetic to null the pain of rhat...

I have no experience with that(I used the clean and the clear... kidding of course), so I'm just hear saying it.

Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Jan 7, 2008 10:41 PM CST up reply actions

I've read,

that suggestion on other sites, but I have to say that one--using lidocaine to numb the B12--doesn't make sense to me. I've had lidocaine for minor surgical procedures, and that stuff hurts like a MOTHER. It hurts so badly that it's even common for completely anesthetized patients to move in response to an injection of it! It's hard for me to imagine that B12 would hurt worse, so why take the lidocaine first? But I've never had the B12, so I don't know.

by Danyah on Jan 8, 2008 5:14 AM CST up reply actions

My mother, who's a registered nurse

said that lidocaine (known in the medical profession as zidacaine, the spelling might be off) is what is injected into the mouth during dental work to numb the area. The only way he'd be getting lidocaine is to numb the area for further shots. Furthermore, it's EXTREMELY dangerous to be injected in the joints and only an operating surgeon should perform it. If Clemens let McNamee do it he either didn't know what he was getting or a fucking idiot. If McNamee did it, he better have tricked Clemens into signing a solid release because he should know better.

Wandilicious!!!

by saylinara on Jan 8, 2008 4:20 AM CST up reply actions

Xylocaine, not Zidacaine

Bad spelling and bad hearing on that one.

Wandilicious!!!

by saylinara on Jan 8, 2008 4:22 AM CST up reply actions

Phone call is inconclusive...

Rastro's description of the "mob phone call" is quite on point. You are left to ponder too many things which are unsaid, to read between the lines. McNamee's constant repeating "Just tell me what you want me to do" gets annoying as the call goes on. What was he trying to do? Solicit money? Trap Clemens into telling him what to say? Was he honestly offering to come to the press conference? McNamee's initial comment that he doesn't know Hardin and the investigators, that he wants to deal with Clemens directly, is interesting. Is he honestly considering co-operating with Clemens, or is this just a set up? Probably the latter.

I don't know that the recording helps either side very much. However, I think McNamee is hurt a little bit more than Clemens. At some points, he seems to accede to Clemens' assertion that he needs someone to tell the truth, that he doesn't understand why McNamee said what he did. I find it odd that McNamee never says "I did tell the truth."

by clack on Jan 7, 2008 10:03 PM CST reply actions

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