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Around SBN: Phil Mickelson Outshines Tiger Woods

Lance Berkman is the New Jeff Bagwell

Don't believe me? Well... I have proof... well sort of. It's amazing how similar these two are/were in offensive categories. See below.



Here's what I've done. I took Lance Berkman's stats and calculated what his totals will be if he stays on his exact path and has the exact number of at bats that Bagwell has. Hopefully Lance won't have a career-ending injury like Baggy had and hopefully Berkman will get more at bats(Biggio has over 10K at bats by the way). Just some more useless information I calculated(all assuming Lance stays on the same path of production). Home run #500 will come in AB # 8298; 600 will come in at bat # 9960. His 3000th hit would come in AB # 9975(which would mean he'd become a member of the 600 HR club and 3000 hit club within a few weeks from each other) It would take Lance 15752 AB's before he matched Bagwell in stolen bases.

Here's a little bit of information just for reference. Assuming Lance plays 152 games a year(his average over the last 6 seasons) and averages his 3.4 AB's per game like he has so far in his career, here's how long it will take to reach milestone at bats.

AB # 5000 : 323 more games(2.1 more seasons)
AB # 7000 : 886 more games(5.8 more seasons)
AB # 9000 : 1475 more games(9.7 more seasons)
AB # 10,000 : 1768 more games(11.6 more seasons)

Lance is 31 right now.

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Park is important
Berkman needs a big second half - 23 HRs - to stay on pace with Bags through age-31 seasons. Of course, Bagwell did all that in the Astrodome, while Berkman has had the luxury of playing in MMP.

by mastro on Jul 11, 2007 4:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Yep
I'm guessing Bagwell has over 500 Homeruns if he plays in MMP his entire career instead of the dome... but such is life.

by Stros Bro on Jul 11, 2007 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Discount three years for shoulder injury
Wouldn't you want, for comparison purposes, to project Bagwell's stats leaving out his last three years or so where his swing was hampered by that shoulder injury?

Whatever - there's no doubt that Berkman is the hoss we expect to carry on Jeff Bagwell's leadership and production role on the team.

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 11, 2007 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't really
See much of a point in it.. he played over 150 games in 2 of his last 3 seasons and other than his lower batting average(which in the scheme up things only lowered his batting average a few points) his stats really didn't go down that much. I mean he hit 39 and 27 home runs in his last 2 full seasons.

by Stros Bro on Jul 11, 2007 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize
Bagwell did so well with no shoulder. How did he do that?

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 11, 2007 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope he will...
...but I don't think Lance can play another 11.2 seasons at the same level as Bagwell.  

If Berkman follows the examples set forth by Baggs and Craig Biggio, and stays with the 'Stros his entire career, he may very well equal Bagwell, but he'll have to stay healthy and productive.  As I said, I hope he does.

"...and if I claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that I don't know." SL

by Southern Lion on Jul 11, 2007 5:03 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree
I don't see him playing 11.2 more seasons either... I've actually vaguely remember hearing that Berkman doesn't seem to be the type that will continue playing until he's physically unable to play... There's a chance that after his current 5 year deal is up, that he might not play another 5 years... so who knows.

by Stros Bro on Jul 11, 2007 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Magnifies Biggio's Accomplishment
Interesting comparisons. The obligatory Astrodome asterisk would cut both ways I guess.

While looking at how many years it'd take Berkman to get to landmark  at-bats, I saw over two seasons to get 5000 at bats; and suddenly I thought "Craig Biggio has 3000 hits and it'll more than 2 years for Berkman to have career at-bats twice that."

Then I noticed your projected hits for Berkman and the actual for Bagwell leave them 700 hits shy of Craig Biggio's 3000+.

We could go on, like Berkman would have to bat .300 for the rest of his career and even if did not go on the DL he'd have to play until he's 43 years old to approach 3000 hits.

And Berkman arguably is the best hitter on the team (okay -arguments can be made for Hunter Pence and Carlos Lee).

mind boggling.

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 11, 2007 5:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Bill James' age and performance curves predict
that a player of Lance's caliber will have achieved 70% of his career production during the year he is 31 years old.  This would suggest Lance will finish his career with something like

G=1748
R=1123
H=1832
HR=392
RBI=1238

and James projects the standard error in his estimating at plus or minus 4%.  His formulas would suggest that Berkman has very little, if any, chance of achieving the 2000 hit plateau.  Unfortunately for those of us who really enjoy watching him, he has, according to James, only about 5 more years before he will have achieved 90% of his output.  And this also assumes no major time lost to injuries.

by bwhite2323 on Jul 11, 2007 9:24 PM CDT reply actions  

It could
very well work out that way... it would be a tough pill to swallow, but if in 5 years, Lance were basically done as a major league player.. I can't say I would be completely surprised... sad, but not completely surprised.

by Stros Bro on Jul 11, 2007 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is sad thought
I'm tired and grumpy and a little melancholy since it's almost 11:00 p.m. and I'm still at work and not getting anything done except posting too many comments on The Crawfish Boxes  - - But -- the thought of Lance Berkman's career being over in five or six years (he and Carlos ride off to their farms together) is a sad thought.

After 2012 the only current Astros to still be on the team may be Hunter Pence and Orlando Palmeiro. Now I understand why the Mayan calendar ends in Decemebr 2012.

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 11, 2007 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Orlando!
HAHAH! I know your kidding, but that's damn funny.

by Stros Bro on Jul 12, 2007 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Charmed Baseball Life of One Orlando Palmeiro
I've expected Palmeiro not to make the final roster the last four spring trainings, and he's still there.

Reminds me of my first real job after college. I traveled taking inventory. I'd take notes and when back in the office I'd try to fix  communication and other problems folks in the field brought up.

A fellow who did the same job as I and shared an office with me made fun of me for doing that. There was an extra unused desk in the office. I pointed to it and said, "Bill, If you don't try to improve things you're no better than that desk."

Bill responded, "It's still here, isn't it?"

Like that desk, Orlando Palmeiro is still here.

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 12, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good Work.
One of the things I found interesting that wasn't discussed is that Stros Bro's projection suggests that Berkman will take more games to reach the same level of at bats.

Why is that, I'm wondering?  

Well, because Bagwell has a greater ab/g ratio than Berkman, 3.62 to 3.48.  Bagwell averaged more at bats per game than Berkman.

OK, but why is that?

the first thing you think of is that Berkman walks (slightly) more than Bagwell did, so as walks go up, AB's go down.  

They do, but Bagwell still holds an advantage in pa/g, where you account for the walks, and the hits by pitches and all the rest.  The numbers there are closer, at 4.38 for Baggy to 4.20 for Puma, but still.

My thinking is that both players spent the majority of their careers batting third, so lineup position doesn't explain it.

The difference becomes even more pronounced when you consider that the Astros averaged fewer plate appearances overall during Bagwell's tenure than they have in Berkman's.  The average yearly PA's for the Astros  since 1999 when Berkman debuted has been 6308.  During Bagwell's tenure, 1991 - 2005, they were 6134, a difference of 174.  So all other things being equal, Berkman should have had 174/9 or approximately 20 MORE plate yearly appearances than Bagwell.  

This might be all trivial BS, except for the one explanation I can think of:  that Bagwell was a Gold Glove first baseman, and would not be removed late in games for a defensive replacement.  We know Lance is a pretty good defensive player, but he's not Gold Glove either, and we know he is removed late in games, we see it.

In trying to figure the legacy of both players, this is probably something that should be factored in.  Lance is an offensive force, but even beyond the park factors mentioned above, there are reasons to suggest Bags is the better player, and I hope you found this as interesting as I did, coz I know it was long.

Maven of Positivity

by rastronomicals on Jul 11, 2007 9:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Is Lance ever
removed for a Defensive replacement?  I don't think we have a better first baseman defensively.  I have seen him removed when the game is over but never for a defensive substitution.  I mean who is better?  Mike Lamb(hell no), Munson? ummmmm...  Loretta? no...  I could see that being the case when Berkman was playing in the OF but not now.  

by TimStros on Jul 12, 2007 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

is this more
a thing of the past with him being removed late in games for a defensive replacement in the OF?

by littlevisigoth on Jul 12, 2007 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the proof of your assertion
that Bagwell is the better player may be the fact that Bags is widely considered a likely Hall Of Fame candidate and it doesn't seem that Berkman is going to get to that level, though it would really be fun if he does!

by bwhite2323 on Jul 12, 2007 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's early to...
consider whether Berkman might have HOF potential.  Berkman is basically in his 7th season...which might correspond to Bagwell in 1997.  I don't recall a lot of discussion about Bagwell's potential as a Hall of Famer at that point in time.  The discussion regarding Bagwell seemed to begin--at least by my recollection--around 2000 or 2001. (I recall reading Rob Neyer's column mentioning Bagwell as a potential Hall of Famer in about 2001.)

by clack on Jul 12, 2007 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Berkman
will make the HOF.  He's good, but he's not the type of good that will make it into the Hall.  There seems to be surge lately of good players that just don't have the oomph one needs for HOF consideration.  The only way I see him getting in is if he's around the game for at least the next 10 years, minimum.
Wandilicious

by saylinara on Jul 12, 2007 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Astros compete in playoffs
If Astros fall to mid-level mediocre seldom make the playoffs team, lanced can kiss HOF off. He will garner attention only if the team succeeds.

Wonderful World

by Joe in Birmingham on Jul 12, 2007 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think
That it's going to take him 10 years to be getting considered for the hall of fame... I think closer to 8 would do it.. That would(if my #'s turn out to be anywhere near correct) put him around 500 home runs, which is basically the magic number.
Go 'Stros!

by Stros Bro on Jul 12, 2007 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not in ten years
Once more people hit the elusive 500, the number will be bumped up.  When Bidge hit 3000, all the commentators were talking about how that was more of an honor then 500, since there's about 20-30 guys in baseball who could potentially hit that mark right now.  They said that in ten or fifteen years, when this generation would be eligible, the magic number would probably be closer to 600.
Wandilicious

by saylinara on Jul 12, 2007 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

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