The Crawfish Boxes: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:





Garner Re-Upped, Hickey Fired

Can't say I expected them to fire Jim Hickey. The story at the main site downplays the Hickey firing, while talking up Garner's one-year extension.

Still, the Garner extension was deserved; it may be difficult to say the same about the sacking of Hickey.

I know that he had some talent to work with, but since Jim Hickey assumed the role of pitching coach after the All-Star break in 2004, the Astros have had the lowest team ERA in the NL, and are one of only two teams to have kept that composite ERA under 4.00.

ERA since the '04 Break
Team ERA
Houston 3.83
St. Louis 3.95
San Francisco 4.04
Wash/Mont 4.05
NY Mets 4.06

I need to think about this some more, although why do I get the feeling that we'll be hearing from Burt Hooton?

0 recs | Comment 10 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

I can't say I'm surprised
Hickey may have had talent in Clemens, Pettitte, and Oswalt, but all the rooks sucked, IMO.  He worked SO hard with Wandy, but after the pitchers figured out Wandy's game, he started tanking too.  Hirsh and Buchholz and Nieve never really got it together, on the major league level.  I think Hickey is good at status quo, and keeping the pitchers in shape, but he's not good at developing talent.  Which is why our good guys were so good, but our not-so-good guys were so bad.

Also, he couldn't figure out Lidge.  It shouldn't have taken a minor-league nomad to tell Hickey that Lidge was tipping.

by saylinara on Oct 4, 2006 3:57 PM CDT   0 recs

Meh?
What do you mean Nieve never got it together? He finished with a 4.20 ERA and an above-average ERA+. Hirsh had quite a few quality starts after that isolated ten-run debacle against Cincy. And Sampson was good every time he managed to get into a game. Yeah, Buchholz was inconsistent and Wandy tailed off, but you can't expect every rookie to pan out so soon.

And Lidge tipping his pitches obviously wasn't the problem, since he kept right on sucking the whole year. The Astros tried just about everything they could, mechanically, with Lidge. They had him pitch from the stretch, they tried to fiddle with his delivery, they followed McEwing's suggestion about tipping pitches, and he still simply could not close. At this point Lidge's problems have got to be mental, and Hickey is a coach, not a shrink. Personally I think Garner deserves more of the blame, since it would've have been a problem if we'd tabbed Wheeler as the closer sooner, instead of using every pretext possible to give Lidge way too many chances.

The fact that we managed to keep our team ERA so low in a park as hitter-friendly as MMP tells me that Hickey got jobbed.

by Anatole on Oct 4, 2006 4:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Garner Sucks

by jakechap20 on Oct 4, 2006 9:32 PM CDT   0 recs

that's just
silly.

by loganck on Oct 5, 2006 10:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Youth movement?
Should they look internally at someone who has worked with some of the younger guys and has a relationship with them?

by Gville Astros Fan on Oct 4, 2006 9:57 PM CDT   0 recs

Could it be as simple
as knowing that with Garner back, it will take an ERA of below 2.00 for the team to win given its pitiful offense?  Clearly Hickey couldn't get the job done.....

Move over Ashby and Dierker, make room for another throwaway.

by bwhite2323 on Oct 4, 2006 10:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"I think Hickey is good at status quo . . .
and keeping the pitchers in shape, but he's not good at developing talent."

I might be more likely to agree with you if you'd said the exact opposite.

You're I'm sure aware that Hickey was promoted to the Astros from AAA New Orleans, but you may not be aware that he had actually served as a pitching coach within the organization going back to 1991.  

Certainly, minor league pitching coaches don't get fired the way their major league cohorts do, but even so, a tenure like that is remarkable:  the Astros trusted his ability to work with young arms, for many years.  

He got results, too:  the staffs he coached  were first or second in their league in ERA six times.  

1994 GCL Astros # 2
1995 Quad City # 1
1996 Jackson # 2
2001 New Orleans # 2
2002 New Orleans # 1
2003 New Orleans # 1

Quite a run there towards the end with the Zephyrs, huh?

If I say that Hickey had full years with Scott Elarton or Chris Holt or John Halama or even Wade Miller, it may sound as if I am damning with faint praise.  But those guys were as we know not fireballers, and their curves didn't break three feet, yet they all made the majors, and I'm sure that all of them would acknowledge the influence of Jim Hickey.  

In 2002, the club named Hickey their Organizational Man of the Year, "rewarding him for his efforts in developing some of the Astros top pitchers."

I'd say that along with Charley Taylor and Jack Billingham, Jim Hickey has been one of the most distinguished pitching coaches in the history of the team's farm system.  

You may or may not like what he did in 2006, but his ability to develop young pitchers has long since been established.

But I decided to take a look at 2006.  You may have noticed that the club finished second inthe league with a 4.08 ERA.  And it could very well be argued that this very respectable ERA is skewed because of the presence of Roger and Roy and Andy.  Who, presumably, Hickey does not coach.

But when I removed the numbers put up by our big three, what I got was still very respectable.

The entire staff:

82 - 80, 4.08 ERA, 2.41 K/BB, 1.30 WHIP

The guys left after you remove R, R, and A:

47 - 53, 4.57 ERA, 2.37 k/bb, 1.38 WHIP.

Yes that's right, the pitching staff led by starters Wandy and Taylor would have finished tenth in the league in ERA all by its lonesome.

It would have finished tied for fourth in WHIP.  

I didn't follow through, but just imagine what the ERA of, oh, Milwaukee's pitchers would have been after you removed Sheets and Capuano and I guess Dave Bush.

I would seriously bet most clubs would drop sixes.

Wandy may have dropped off the table, but that wonderous April he had is still there in the books, unerased, and how do you explain that?  It wasn't sustained, more's the pity, but what you had there was a young pitcher reaching a new plateau.  

Usually we credit the pitching coaches in cases like that.

One last thing.  Dan Wheeler.

People have remarked on what a great deal he's been for the Astros, how his career took an almost quantum leap forward upon his arrival in Houston.  Now of course, I don't know.  But if I were to suggest to you that Hickey is the guy who got Wheeler to reach his full potential, what would your reaction be?

I've thought about it now, and I'll step forward:  the Astros made a mistake.  They fired a guy who's done nothing but get results his entire career.

Christ, the Astros have been the best in the league at what he coaches ever since he got to Houston.  His staffs led the league in ERA for the second half of 2004, the second half of 2005, and the second half of 2006.  

They were third for the first half of 2005, and seventh for the first half of 2006.  That is to say, since Hickey took the helm, there has never been even a 2-1/2 month period where the Astros have not had a better than league average pitching staff.

Although I won't waste the space in a post already too long by posting them, the WHIP numbers break down almost as good.  As do the K/9 numbers.

Hickey has been able to reproduce successful results.

Why are they firing this guy?

by rastronomicals on Oct 4, 2006 10:31 PM CDT   0 recs

The Hickey Firing
Let me make it clear at the start that I have never been a Drayton McLane fan. He has certainly done some nice things for Astros baseball, but also some idiotic things as well,  and good or bad, he has never missed a chance to line his pockets in the process.  Rastro has made the excellent case that the firing of Jim Hickey can not be even slightly supported by results, so it seems quite likely there were political or personality differences that must have caused the move.

And in thinking back over Drayton's "checkered" career, this seems to make sense to me.  The Astros dung heap is littered with names such as Mike Hampton, Darryl Kile, Moises Alou, Billy Wagner, Richard Hildalgo, Larry Dierker, Alan Ashby, and now Jim Hickey, all of whom were excellent at their craft, but if you reflect for a moment, all of whom somewhere along the way spoke out against or crossed swords with the "organzation". We don't know what Hickey did or said, but given the pattern of former firings, that must surely be at the heart of the matter. There are no statistics to support an argument like this, but what else could it be?

If I'm right, I don't like where this takes the organization as a whole.  The kinds of competitors that sometimes let their anger spill over away from the game itself are in many cases just exactly the kinds of players this team so desperately needs.  And look at the current roster.  These are palyers we have loved, suffered with and rooted for, but let's face it  - Everett, Bruntlett, Taveras, Lane, Ausmus, Lamb, Palmiero, Ensberg, and even Scott and Berkman - all have a certain (large) lack of fire that has bothered me a lot at times.  Only Oswalt and Biggio seem to have any cahones, and McLane learned in the Bagwell case that even he can't fool with the legends.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong about those guys, 'cause I like them a lot in many ways, but if I'm correct, the future in an Astros uniform does not bode well for Chris Burke and Brad Lidge in particular - too fiery, too impatient.  Think about it.  Really. What other common thread is there?

by bwhite2323 on Oct 6, 2006 1:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

my .02...
I'm a little baffled about why so many people are getting all pissy about Hickey's firing.

I feel bad for the guy, just like I did Gaetti when his happened, but considering the amount of talent to be found on the 'Stros staff they SHOULD be doing well. It's not an accident w/ this level of talent. JMHO. I'm not blaming him for Lidge or Qualls this year or the non-Sampson rookies, just pointing out that maybe some of you are giving him more credit for the success of the overall staff than he might deserve.

Ohh, and I'd argue that any the lack of production prior to him might have something to do w/ a) the pitching was VERY young prior to Andy and Roger coming aboard in 2004 (and young inexperienced pitching has the tendency to struggle as we saw this season) AND b) there were a few important injuries to the pitching staff in 2004.

Back on topic, though, I'm less bothered by the upset over Hickey's dismissal than I am by all the attendant conspiracy theories I've read. Is it really so implausible that Garner and Purpura would want to bring in someone w/ new ideas? Seems to me like a rebuilding-the-staff type season would be the perfect time to bring in a pitching coach who is more guru and less instructor. A Duncan/Mazzone type, if you will.

I doubt McLane had anything to do w/ it and it doesn't make Purpura and Garner idiots. If you're going to lambast the players for their own personal failures, give them some freakin' credit for their own success, PLEASE This isn't the minor leagues where they need people to teach them how to pitch.

I guess my point is to say this--it should say things to you about where this team's going 1) they likely won't take things for granted again this off-season like they did last and therefore stand pat and 2) see who they name to the position and give them a chance to succeed or fail.

I realize it's been a very frustrating season but it's just one season. I think people should relax and resist the urge to question EVERY decision the club makes. There's nothing to be gained by second-guessing them before you even see what the results are.

by StrosDux on Oct 6, 2006 11:27 PM CDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Crawfishboxes, the SBNation blog for the Houston Astros.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
I know this is old but what do you think about the draft the Stros had?
Crawfishboxes_m_small
Switch Pitching?
Apocred_small
Villareal and Quintero Out, Borkowski and Towles Join the Astros
Small
where is our international prospect (IFA)??
Small
Debating the Astros Line-Up
Small
Half Way - The 2008 Astros' past, present, and future.
Small
The NL Needs the DH
Lg_blt1855_small
Best Bench in National League?
Lg_blt1855_small
Post-Interleague, Pre-AllStar Schedules
Ben_small
J.R. Towles update

Post New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

Current Series

3 game series vs Braves @ Turner Field

Fri 07/04 WP: Tim Hudson (9 - 6)
LP: Brian Moehler (4 - 4)
2 - 6 loss
Sat 07/05 6 - 1 win
Sun 07/06

Wandy Rodriguez vs Charlie Morton

Mostly cloudy with a 30-percent chance of rain. Winds blowing out to center field at 5-10 m.p.h. Game Time temperature: Around 85.

12:35 PM CDT

NL Central Standings

W L PCT GB STRK
Chicago Red-star 52 36 .590 0 Lost 1
St. Louis Red-star 50 39 .561 2.5 Won 1
Milwaukee Red-star 48 39 .551 3.5 Won 2
Cincinnati Red-star 41 47 .465 11 Won 2
Houston Red-star 41 47 .465 11 Won 1
Pittsburgh Red-star 40 46 .465 11 Lost 2

(updated 7.5.2008 at 8:45 PM CDT)


Crawfishboxes Manager

Crawfishboxes_m_small Stros Bro

Blogger

Nsapcs13_large_small clack

ad

Site Meter